Kim (00:01.526)
Welcome, Natalie. Nice to see you.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (00:04.822)
As always, lovely to see you. Thanks for having me.
Kim (00:07.662)
Of course I can see the snow in the background and as we were talking before we jumped on snowy where I am too which is not super common and I was saying it's cold but it's never Alaska cold here. Not quite but anyway I know how passionate you are first of all about pelvic health. We've worked together for many years and
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (00:23.202)
That's fair.
Kim (00:34.154)
I know that passion of yours and I also know, and I don't think I quite knew how passionate you were until I was in Alaska with you and really saw this like true you are so dedicated to foot health and I really wanted to have you on to talk about all things feet.
I talk about them and I follow a lot of the same principles but I learned a lot from you just watching your day and watching the way that you were teaching and I really wanted to invite you on and have you share your foot love with everybody. So if you can tell us a little bit about how you came first of all to kind of the pelvic health world and then what drove your passion to the foot health realm.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (01:06.283)
Hehehe
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (01:17.694)
Oh man. Okay. So buckle up guys. Um, basically about 10 years ago is, is when I entered into the pelvic health world unknowingly, I started teaching Pilates and concurrently became a doula and saw that a lot of my doula clients were having issues. They were having pelvic floor dysfunction. They were having diastasis, prolapse, and I didn't know enough to
Kim (01:20.718)
Hahaha!
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (01:47.182)
them anything about it. But then at the same time I was fortunate enough to be a part of a Pilate studio that did post-baby classes and a pelvic PT came in and taught and I was able to assist and learn that exercise could be preventative for some of those things and thus was my introduction to the pelvic health world. And at the time I was in nursing school so I was in college at the same time and I started googling like how do I
become someone who does fitness and doula work and kind of mesh that together. And at the time Kim was going by the fitness doula. So obviously she popped right up and I started following her and it was just kind of a chain of events that led us to talk and I did the certification and I quit nursing school, decided to pursue exercise science, an exercise science degree and I never really looked.
back. So that's kind of how I entered into the pelvic floor world, but feet kind of came at a different time. And it's really, really interesting. So I was active for my entire life. My mom was always great about taking us outside. I mean, we live in Alaska, so I grew up here. We were hiking, we were mountain biking, we were swimming, we were in the snow, we were cross-country skiing, all of the things.
But then the dance go shoes became really, really popular about the time that I was like 12 or 13 years old. So dance go shoes are like clogs, like really hard sold clogs. And the claim was that it would help your posture, which is so funny now. Looking back, exactly, yeah. But even at that point in my life, I was like, oh, I know that posture is good. I need to have better posture. And so I was always interested in that.
Kim (03:31.894)
Now we know we know.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (03:42.718)
in the health world and kind of more natural things. It's like, Oh, if I can put this on my feet and help my posture. Great. And they were slip ons, which is always nice. Um, and so I wore those like, I want to say about 90, 90% of the time. I wore those shoes, but then I started dancing ballet and of course ballet shoes, I was not in point, um, yet. And so they were just slippers with no support at all, just with covering for your feet. And so the.
weakness that my feet, I guess, developed, undeveloped. They lost a lot of strength because the Dancego shoes were super supportive, super hard, didn't allow my foot to move at all. The only redeeming factor is that they were wide in the toe box. And I know we'll talk a lot more about shoes and footwear later on, but my feet got really, really weak and then I would go to dance and in the hour long ballet class that I had,
Kim (04:33.143)
Yeah.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (04:41.834)
my feet would hurt so bad. And it got to the point where I could barely take a step barefoot without excruciating pain close to my heel, like right in front of my heel. So we went to the doctor and they're like, basically you have plantar fasciitis. So the only cure is to a stop dancing and also put some support in your shoes. That was the pediatrician's answer, which, um, looking back again, like, oh man, I wish there was more education.
Like, why would you tell a middle school girl who's enjoying an activity in her life to stop doing that activity? There's a boatload of problems with that, but I eventually put these, I don't know, Dr. Scholl's heel cups, the ones you can buy at random stores, nothing like a prescribed orthotic in my shoes, and the pain went away because I had that support.
but I was done with dancing and it limited also the other activities that I did. My pain definitely limited me and I think that set me back in my athleticism and what I chose to do in my life as far as movement goes. So then fast forward to when I was teaching Pilates, we also did a lot of footwork. So the combination of learning about the pelvic floor and learning about feet at the same time kind of spurred some...
some thoughts in my brain like, oh, maybe, maybe this is connected. And turns out it is. So probably about, I want to say 2018. So it's like early 2024 right now. And we're recording it like 2018 is when I fully switched over to minimal footwear and haven't had foot pain since. So that's kind of the storyline. Yeah.
Kim (06:31.554)
Yeah, that's so cool. I love that. And isn't it funny, you know, of course we have, we're older, we're wiser, but when we look back at some of the decisions that maybe we made on our own, but also maybe our parents made for us with the best of intentions, and now knowing what we know now, wishing we could go back, however.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (06:46.551)
Yum.
Kim (06:52.738)
you're a testament to it's never too late and that transition period allowed you know brought you to where you are now and um and I think that that's something that so many people have preconceived notions of oh I have flat feet or I can't do this because my feet x and will put a label on of some sort of you know foot pain or foot dysfunction and
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (07:18.325)
Mm-hmm.
Kim (07:20.318)
maybe haven't maybe don't know things like why toe box and minimal shoes, but then we're going to get into those. So I'm hoping that this conversation will get into the ears of many and open up the realm of possibility for change and improving foot health. So what are some of the more you mentioned plant plantar fasciitis? This is something that I had experienced to when I first became a personal trainer. So this is 25 ish, maybe 30 years ago.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (07:47.31)
Hehehehe
Kim (07:48.434)
long time ago and I remember I was doing a lot of running. I was in running shoes all the time but now again knowing what I know about footwear and shoes the positive heel and the more pressure on the front of my foot and anyway achy plantar fasciitis that was what I experienced as well super
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (07:57.476)
Mm-hmm.
Kim (08:11.658)
I think I hear it about it a lot. But so you've mentioned plantar fasciitis. What are some of the other more common reasons why somebody may have foot pain or maybe they don't even have pain, but there's some sort of reason why their foot is not working as well as it should. What are some of the more common conditions?
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (08:29.546)
Yeah. Bunions. Bunions are a huge one. That's probably the number one complaint that I hear from people outside of plantar fasciitis. And you can have a bunion on the big toe side or the pinky side of your foot. You can have either or both. A lot of people have both. And
Kim (08:47.778)
this was something that I just learned actually recently that I have a little bunion on my pinky side. I had no idea that I thought bunion was only the big toe.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (08:52.738)
Hmm.
Yeah, it's so interesting and people will see the video for this. Yes, some of them. OK, so I have my foot, my foot model here, of course. So if you're looking at this, it's the left foot. I believe it will come across that way. The toes are a little wonky. But essentially, a bunion is where the rays of the foot, the bones move out to the side. And then some pressure pulls.
Kim (08:59.864)
Yes.
Kim (09:04.735)
We love our props.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (09:24.802)
the toes inward. And so it creates a non-optimal position of that joint there and it can calcify. And so it can build up and be really painful. Same thing on the pinky toe side. And bunions, a lot of times people say they're genetic. They're primarily caused by footwear. Women experience them more because we tend to have more flexible ligaments and connective tissue, especially during pregnancy and postpartum. So
Bunions are huge one. Hammer toes where the toes, the second and third toes usually start to curl in like they're trying to cross over the big toe. Let's see, heel pain in general, bone spurs are another thing and I learned from podiatrist Andy Bryant that bone spurs are actually usually the cause of pain which is an interesting thing and some people develop them,
don't, sometimes they go away, sometimes they don't. But it kind of goes with the almost like a prolapse situation, like the severity doesn't determine the symptoms. So kind of some parallels with the pelvic floor there.
Kim (10:41.078)
Yeah, and so we're kind of going to go down the footwear path I think because the point you just brought up too is that women will have these issues usually more common than men sometimes because of the ligament, the changes biomechanically or the structures that we have physiologically. But also,
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (11:00.959)
Mm-hmm.
Kim (11:03.67)
Women also wear more of the high heels, the heel, the positive heeled shoes, the pointier toes on average. Would you say that's accurate? Yeah, and that's also contributing. The cute shoes. Yeah, yeah. It was funny when I went up to Alaska to teach with you, whenever I think of it as four or three or four months ago, I hadn't...
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (11:10.05)
Yep.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (11:13.45)
Yeah, oh absolutely, yeah, the quote unquote cute shoes. Yeah, yeah.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (11:27.988)
Mm-hmm.
Kim (11:32.526)
found a pair of minimal shoes that are good to travel in because I like to have the ones that are easy off and on so you can go through security. And I wasn't wearing my minimal shoes. And the very first thing, why aren't you wearing your minimal shoes? That was the very first thing that you said. You were looking for my shoes. I thought it was very funny. But yeah, so what's that?
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (11:44.68)
I'm sorry.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (11:51.946)
It's generally, oh, go ahead. I was going to say it's generally what I notice about people when I first meet them or see them.
Kim (11:59.038)
Yeah, yeah. Once you have it's like I look at people's posture all the time and I look at their backsides and they're but tucking and in that type of thing and it's just you become once you have a passion of something you can identify something in others very quickly, but So anyway, I was laughing at that but so foot footwear is a major as you say a lot of people blame their bunion on Genetics when a lot of the time it's footwear. So where you described with your foot
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (12:04.467)
Mm-hmm.
Kim (12:29.718)
when we have that closed toe, when the shoe is shaping our foot, it would be contributing to that movement of the big toe laterally.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (12:44.75)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. There's a lot that shoes can do to us. And if we're wearing them, like our bodies are smart, right? And the tissues are moldable and tissues do what we ask them to repeatedly. So, and that's just a fact of exercise physiology, right? If we continually lift, you know, do a bicep curl or biceps is going to grow bigger. If we continually shove our feet into small narrow shoes that don't flex.
Kim (13:01.771)
Right.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (13:11.874)
then our feet are going to start to look like that shape of that shoe. It's just wild to me. Like, when did we decide that feet are supposed to look like that? Like that is not a natural foot. If you look at a baby's foot when they're first born, typically, right. The toes are the widest part of the foot. It's kind of a triangle where it goes down into the heel. Ideally, all of our feet should look like that. Um, but over time we've transitioned them to.
Kim (13:21.688)
Yeah.
Kim (13:31.512)
Mm-hmm.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (13:40.662)
more of a pointy, pointy toe, not even towards the big toe, towards the middle of our foot. If you think of like the classic high heel shape. Mm-hmm.
Kim (13:47.127)
Mm-hmm.
Kim (13:50.878)
Yeah and one of our teachers, Katie Bowman, I love the word she is, that shoes are casting our feet and it's so as you say this adaptation happens when we are when we are putting our feet we're fitting them into this mold that is not allowing the sort of the splay of the toes the wide toe box. I remember having a conversation about toe box with my mom and my brother was overhearing he said I've never heard that term and now I've also heard it about 15 times in the last five sentences.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (13:58.006)
Yes.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (14:17.9)
Heheheheh!
Kim (14:20.19)
So what's the importance of the toe box in our shoes?
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (14:23.69)
Yeah, the toe box is what houses our toes. And when our feet come in contact with the ground, our toes should splay out, spread out. And that is because we have 26 bones in each of our feet, 33, you can call them joints or more so bone articulations where bone meets bone. It's not necessarily a true joint, um, but there's flexibility there. And if you liken it to your hand,
which can do all sorts of things. It can, you know, pick up a mug of coffee. It can type, it can grab and swing on monkey bars. Like there's so many things our hands can do because of the fact that there's so many bones and so many ligaments and joint art or bone articulations or joints in our hands to allow that function. Our foot is very, very similar and has so many bones and so many ligaments that should be able to mold themselves essentially to the ground. When we
when we land on it. So whether you step on a varied surface or a flat ground, those bones and joints kind of spread out to absorb the shock of that step. And it also allows you to spring back up and move you forward. So you're able to locomote in the direction that you're moving, right? And so if our shoes are wide enough in the toe area, the toe box,
Kim (15:45.422)
Mm-hmm.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (15:51.686)
then they can splay. But if they're not, and they're holding our toes nice and solid in that, in that like one position, then the shock and the ground forces go up to a different joint. So they just transfer. So it's kind of like having good shocks for your car versus shocks that are shot, right? Not working well. Then the forces go up to the next available joint. And oftentimes that's the ankle.
So if you roll your ankle very often, if you feel like your ankles are weak, which a lot of people do, right. Then, then we end up bracing or casting our ankle with higher shoes or hiking boots. And then the shock has to go even higher to our knee. And it's kind of like this, this circular thinking. And we end up with
braces all the way up our leg until we have the shock into our low back. Most of the time is where it ends up and we end up with pain there. Um, so that was kind of a long, long explanation, but our toes need to spread out when they come in contact with the ground and our shoes need to allow for that.
Kim (16:56.014)
Mm-hmm.
Kim (17:03.466)
Yeah, I remember one time, I think it was my dad's aunt. And so I was much younger. My aunt, my great aunt, she was in her, she was late 80s, early 90s. She was a very active woman. But I remember it was the first time where I looked at shoes that.
like I paid attention to her shoes because she said I have to have these otherwise my feet hurt and so she had these right and I looked at her shoes and I thought those are so they were so narrow and also the base of support the actual sole of the shoe was almost narrower than the shoe itself and I sort of felt like a population that is more prone to falls have balance issues those seem to be the worst possible shoe of all time and I started to notice that many
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (17:49.922)
Yeah.
Kim (17:53.874)
of the senior population were wearing these very narrow-soled shoes. And now again, I wasn't at the time I had no knowledge of anything that I'm doing now. But I could bet that there was no, that they were very rigid, that they were, I know they were very narrow in the toe box as well. And I think that population of it, like if all of us should have it, but...
That population for sure needs a wider toe box and a flatter and more opportunity for the foot to gain some strength rather than continuing to cinch it in even more.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (18:23.655)
Specifically.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (18:35.454)
Yeah, yeah. And it's a lot of people in this natural foot help world liken it to modern day foot binding like they used to do in ancient China, right? They would wrap the lady's feet tightly and to bind their feet and make them as small as possible, which is horrific. But honestly, like it sounds extreme, but that's, that's kind of what we're doing. We're binding our feet into these tiny little shoes and our feet end up looking
like they've been bound in shoes. So yeah, it's a, I wonder, I really, really wonder if there's a next generation coming up with more natural footwear, if the rate of fall risk in older adults will go down just based on that. I mean, I'm sure people who are thinking about their feet are more likely to be strong, lift weights for longer, for, you know, for longer times in their life. And, but yeah, I just, I really wonder about fall risk and
Kim (19:06.327)
Yep.
Kim (19:32.638)
Yeah. Yep.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (19:33.918)
Um, this is kind of an aside, but you'll probably find it interesting. I was talking to a pharmacist and he was telling me how he doesn't like to put people on medications for incontinence when they're older because it drives them out, they get dizzy and their fall risk is higher. And so I wonder how much of the fall risk in older adult, in the older adult population is coming from small base of support in the feet, incontinence medications and lack of strength.
Kim (19:37.708)
Yeah.
Kim (19:50.412)
Interesting.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (20:03.998)
And those are all things we can change. Like those are all things we can probably prevent in our lifetime. So just kind of a random thought.
Kim (20:06.219)
Yep.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And when you think, like as you're talking, I'm also thinking, you know, when I'm now post-menopausal, bone health is something that I pay very close attention to and I wanna weave into all of the programming that I do, especially because that's the bulk of the people who come to me now as well. And you think about the statistics of how many people are avoiding movement because of their pelvic floor.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (20:28.519)
Mm-hmm.
Kim (20:36.618)
Right? So I'm afraid of leaking. I'm afraid of there not being a bathroom. I'm afraid of making my prolapse worse. I've been told it will make my prolapse or my incontinence worse. So I don't do it. And then we add the layer of the people who are also not moving because their feet hurt because like and so. Yeah. So this next generation with the knowledge now that of foot health and pelvic health getting out there. I would hope that.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (20:37.212)
Mm-hmm.
Kim (21:05.986)
those would decrease. So when we think about the pelvic floor and feet, I remember having a thought in my mind thinking about the arch of the foot and the people who were talking about flat feet or fallen arches and wondering in my mind with that the arch being something that's helping with that absorbing, you were talking about absorbing forces. And if there was less
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (21:07.886)
again.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (21:31.947)
Mm-hmm.
Kim (21:34.45)
absorption happening, you've talked about it translating up into different joints, all the way up to is there lack less pelvic floor support? Would there be more pelvic floor symptoms perhaps in people with flat feet or with fallen arches? Is that something that you have like seen in a population or know anything about from your studies?
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (21:57.29)
Yeah, totally. I would say 100% yes without the science to back me up, just based on the clients that I've seen. If someone is leaking and has foot pain, it's very common that they're interconnected. There's no way that there's separate issues. I mean, our bodies, they're so connected, right? So, and yeah, if the forces are continually going up the chain, we brace the knee, we brace the hip, whatever.
Kim (22:02.51)
Hehehe
Kim (22:17.674)
Yep. Yeah.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (22:26.702)
then the pelvic floor is the respond responder. And if it's not resilient enough to respond to that force, which it's not designed to be, our feet are supposed to absorb that force first, then it's an unnatural excessive pressure and force on the pelvic floor, which can lead to probably more incontinence. There's so many things I wanna say about how the pelvic floor and feet are connected.
Kim (22:37.72)
Right.
Kim (22:46.744)
Right.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (22:55.658)
One of the ones since you mentioned flat feet, if you think about someone, like if you're listening to this or you're watching, if you think about someone with flat feet, their ankles kind of roll inward towards each other. Right. And the knees kind of come closer together. There's lack of support for the pelvic floor. Oftentimes their, their pelvis is tucked under, tailbone is tucked under and their hips are pushed forward. And we know that causes more tension in the back of the pelvic floor, which
creates lack of resiliency in the front, you're more prone to leaking. So that's just one way. If you are wearing heeled shoes of any kind, if there's any increase in height from the heel to the forefoot of the shoe, then you're wearing heeled shoes. And that already puts you on a slant on a ramp and it's way easier to tuck under. So most of the time, if people are struggling to get into that,
more neutral position, more neutral posture, chances are they've been wearing heeled shoes for a very long time. And once they take their shoes off, it's a lot easier to move their pelvis back. But oftentimes it takes hamstring release and pelvic floor release and calf release and a lot of extra work to get those compensatory patterns to let go.
there was a study that they did. It was a pretty small study, like on 23 different women, and they had them wear different levels of high heels, and they did ultrasound on the bladder neck. And they found that basically there's more pressure on the bladder, there's less activation of the pelvic floor in the front when the higher the heel. So if you're gonna wear high heels and you are prone to leaking, then you might be...
like even yeah you might feel more symptoms um which is really it's a nerdy study i love that they did this i love that they did that um so that's i guess the heel raise and how the foot is reacting to the ground um there's also if you think about how the pelvic floor is connected to the feet there's a fascial line and if you guys are familiar with
Kim (24:44.83)
more symptomatic. Yep.
Kim (24:55.166)
I love that too. Yep.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (25:12.798)
anatomy trains. I know, I know Kim is the deep front line of fascia goes from the big toe up through the inner thighs to the pelvic floor transversus diaphragm and out the roof of the mouth. So that's one of the reasons why like a rounded lip exhale helps activate the pelvic floor and the deep core. Right? You can look it up. It's on YouTube if you want to Google it. If you don't believe me while you're listening. So
The big toe, if we are walking correctly, ideally our feet are parallel and we're pushing off of that big toe and allowing our leg to swing through for another step. The pressure of the big toe goes right up into that fascia, activates the pelvic floor. Totally cool, right? Totally clear connection between those two pieces. And if we are wearing shoes that have any kind of lift,
in the toes. So we talk about heel lift, but there's also a toe lift. If you like set your shoe on a counter, something you don't care about your shoe being on top of, and you get eye level with it, if the toes are lifted up, toe spring, then you know that it's probably not allowing your foot to roll through that big toe in the same way that it would if you were barefoot. So
You're not getting the same activation and the fascial connection to the pelvic floor that way as well. The other thing about the big toe is if you are rolling off of kind of the inside of your foot. So if you're standing like a like kind of a ballet position, right? With your toes out and your heels together. If you're commonly in that position with your toes out and you're walking.
with an external rotation in your feet, then you're rolling off of that big toe knuckle or the side of your big toe. And oftentimes that happens with people who have fallen arches or low arches. And there's a difference between the weakness of the arch and the height of the arch. Some people have really high arches and super weak feet. Some people have low arches and super strong feet. So that doesn't necessarily correlate either, but fallen arches are pretty significant and you can tell.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (27:31.87)
if they lift up once people get stronger. Um, but the fallen arches thing, if you work your way up and look at the pelvis, I have Polly here, if you're not, if you're listening to this, the side hip muscle, the gluteus medius. So if you put your hands on your hips with your thumbs facing behind you, the muscle underneath your thumb, I like to refer to it as the stone mason that creates the arches of your feet.
Kim (27:35.415)
Mm-hmm.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (28:00.502)
So if that muscle is very weak, then chances are your arches are probably falling or not as strong as they could be. And so working the side of your hips and making sure that those muscles are strong, a lot of clients report that their arches lift after strengthening their hips is wild. It's really cool. So yeah, those are all ways that, that the feet really interact with the pelvic floor.
Kim (28:27.758)
Do you, are you familiar with this study? I've never actually seen it. I've just heard it referenced many times where there were people who had flat feet, fallen arches, whatever you want to term it, who went through a transition into barefoot shoes. And I think the study was over a two year period and it reevaluated at the end of that two years, their arch position and there was...
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (28:39.583)
Yeah.
Kim (28:52.642)
There were many participants, again, I can't remember the numbers in the study, but their arch actually improved. And so it was a testament to sort of all that you're talking about here where the rigidity and lack of mobility and casting of...
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (29:00.278)
So great.
Kim (29:10.346)
kind of the modern day footwear is weakening the feet. Even though we have all these fancy terms that it's providing all of this support and cushioning, it's weakening the feet. And when we take that away and come back to as close to barefoot as possible, that this was, I believe, I believe the shoes were with Vibram like the five finger, but I don't 100% know the shoe they actually use, but something that would protect from sharp objects and that type of thing. But.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (29:18.09)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kim (29:37.726)
As close to barefoot as possible, allowing the foot to work, the muscles become stronger, the arch was then increasing. Super cool.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (29:44.874)
Yeah. So awesome. Most people don't really need a transition shoe. I would say like they can just go to minimal footwear and their feet get stronger. The majority of the time is they want to run, then usually there's some more additional like restorative exercises that you can do. But yeah, that study. It's incredible. It's like, it's partially common sense, right?
Kim (30:11.051)
Yep.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (30:11.81)
Like if we walk the way we're supposed to, we'll get stronger in the way that we're supposed to, but it's just, I'm glad that they're studying these things because yeah, we need it.
Kim (30:16.0)
Yep.
Kim (30:19.102)
Yeah. So you mentioned we don't need a transition. So a lot of people will talk about a transition to minimal shoes where.
if you, and you had mentioned earlier, some people who, when we, you know, when they have spent years in a certain type of footwear or years with certain behaviors or practices, so they have a specific postural stance or position now, and just putting them, like either taking them out of shoes completely or putting them into a minimal shoe,
Initially, it could create some discomfort from people, especially with tighter hamstrings, tighter calves. And so the general recommendation is you don't just say, you know, throw all of your modern day shoes in the garbage and put on some minimal and carry on. There is a little bit of a transition period. And as you say, it may have to be coupled with exercise. And exercise can mean lengthening or stretching or releasing tension.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (30:57.145)
Mm-hmm.
Kim (31:20.726)
to help ease that transition. Is that accurate or do you say that, no, we just put them on and start walking in them?
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (31:27.154)
And no, I think you summed it up really nicely. I think it depends on the person, which is a really common answer, right? And what they're doing. If you're an ultra marathoner, then that's a very different procedure and process than someone who's maybe not running at all, but doing CrossFit or primarily lifting, um, so yes, yes. And I would, yeah, go ahead. Sorry.
Kim (31:33.319)
Exactly, yeah.
Kim (31:50.922)
Yep. Yeah.
No, I was going to say like my introduction to barefoot or to minimal shoes was through Vibrams and this is probably 14 years ago I think and I had been in orthotics for many years. I had again running shoes but now what I know positive heeled shoes for years that's all I wore. I wasn't, I wore when I was working in the corporate world I did wear high heels periodically. I didn't wear them very often.
But everything was definitely a positive heal for sure. And I was a runner for years and years and years, and then I started to develop knee pain. And so it became this many year process of trying to figure out my knee pain and never, I never went to the feet, never went to the shoes. And after all of these other things and therapies and nothing else was working, and then a friend of mine who isn't really even a runner per se, but he said, you know what, I tried these barefoot shoes because Vibram was starting to become popular and.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (32:25.965)
Mm-hmm.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (32:40.151)
Mm-hmm.
Kim (32:52.15)
He said, I can run now without pain. And I thought, oh, okay, I'm gonna get these to try it. And I did a little research and this was around the time when I was starting to learn about pelvic health and I had been introduced to Katie Bowman. And so I went through a transition and I was wearing them for a short period of time. Then I would go out for short little runs. And anyway, I got to the point where I was running without pain, which was remarkable to me after years of having it.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (32:57.048)
Thank you.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (33:17.048)
Yeah.
Kim (33:19.75)
But the other thing I noticed, I had that's around the time I was also starting my business and I was going to trade shows and I would be standing on these hard cement floors for hours all day long. And when I had done it in my old shoes, my back would ache so much and I could I would just like I would have to be sitting down periodically through the day. And when I transitioned to minimal shoes, I didn't have I could wear I could stand up all day long on any flooring. And I felt.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (33:28.954)
hours.
Kim (33:47.41)
I was not tired. I was not achy anywhere. My feet didn't hurt. It was pretty remarkable. So I've yeah, I except for when I travel, but I do I now have a new pair of boots that are good for travel. So next time I come see you, I'll brag about those. But so what are some other links? Maybe are there any that we didn't talk about links between?
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (33:52.756)
I love that.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (33:56.492)
hehe
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (34:02.58)
Awesome.
Kim (34:13.086)
certain foot conditions and potentially certain pelvic floor conditions that maybe we didn't address before.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (34:20.182)
let me think so.
Kim (34:21.29)
What about, like, you talk about what, like, posture position, is there anything from a prolapse perspective that would be different from what you said earlier?
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (34:29.89)
Potentially impact, I would say, like if we're going into the jumping and the running and you're wearing a shoe that perpetuates that posterior pelvic tilt and you're jumping on that structure, right? Then there's more forward and down pressure into your pelvic floor, which with prolapse we want to try to manage that pressure a little differently and keep it not pressing down and out like a toothpaste tube without the cap on, right? So
Yeah, I would say and we can get into cushioning too of shoes as well. I'm kind of like a little bit scattered, but it all relates together. So yeah, pelvic floor, I would say jumping, running. If your feet aren't absorbing the shock of your step or whatever it is that you're doing. If you're walking with your toes out to the side, almost a penguin walk, right? Then you're rolling off the side of your big toe.
If you have a callus on the side of your big toe, that's a really good way to tell if you're doing this, if you can't quite tell when you're walking, um, bunions and pain, plantar fasciitis. I mean, if you're not training impacted and you're not training your body in the same way, because you're fearful of foot pain, then that's definitely a consideration. And that would affect your pelvic floor because it's not getting the, the forces and the strengthening that it needs. Um,
Kim (35:58.198)
Yeah, we take out some of the movement diversity. And the point that you said about impact is that was sort of where my brain was going when I was thinking about the arches. And if people have flatter feet or the term fallen arches, would that increase their risk for pelvic floor dysfunction like prolapse because of the postural adaptations, because of less, so more shock being sent up for the pelvic floor to manage, which is something that you had highlighted earlier.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (36:00.439)
Yeah.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (36:25.527)
Mm-hmm.
Kim (36:26.802)
So yeah, I don't know of any research on that. This is just us kind of hypothesizing. Maybe somebody will do that study one day. Yeah.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (36:32.03)
Yeah. I okay. So I would say that makes sense to me, but I did find a study. I haven't fully read it yet. I was prepping for this podcast and I got, I'm just like so excited about it. They took a bunch of women who had not ever given birth. So there is that consideration and limitation of the study. It was about 51 women, I believe, and they had them run at different speeds in traditional.
Kim (36:39.115)
Yeah.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (36:59.862)
modern shoes and in minimal footwear. And none of, yeah, none of the participants had ever transitioned prior to the study. So also something to consider. They found they did EMG study on the pelvic floor while they were running at certain speeds. It's like, I was just grinning ear to ear when I was reading this study. I'm like so excited about it. And they found and they concluded that the minimal footwear was
Kim (37:03.175)
Mm, cool.
Kim (37:22.862)
Totally.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (37:29.462)
protective for pelvic floor muscle dysfunction because I know, I know it's like, I will send it to you. We could probably link it in the show notes too. It's open access, but, um, the, the scientists, they were like, okay, so there's these limitations obviously, but there's more activation in the pelvic floor when they're running more minimally. And part of that has to do with how your gate changes in a minimal.
Kim (37:33.902)
Oh my gosh. I'm like, I have to find that study. That's amazing.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (37:59.55)
shoe. So if you, even if you haven't transitioned or ever run barefoot, if you put on a minimal shoe, you don't have a heel, you don't have cushion under your heel. And so it really hurts to land on your heel and heel strike when you're running. And so you automatically shift to a forefoot strike, kind of a mid foot forefoot strike. And that, if you can imagine that, that kind of shifts you into a forward lean with your whole body.
So your feet are underneath you rather than extending super far in front of you and landing on that heel. So your, your stride distance might shorten. Um, but the impact, your ribs are over your pelvis, which is better for your deep core anyways, and your pelvic floor. So it's more optimal that way. And yeah, so they had great success with that study. I'm really, really curious. Like it's exciting for many different reasons, but also that they're studying women specifically.
Kim (38:55.85)
Yes. Totally.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (38:56.654)
and studying pelvic floor and foot interaction. So hopefully there'll be some studies on women who have given birth and who have also had pelvic floor dysfunction in the past. I think that's coming. So yeah, I'm so exciting.
Kim (39:05.364)
Mm-hmm.
Kim (39:10.306)
That's really cool. Yeah, and two points you brought up there are sort of observations I had when I was going through my own transition and running with minimal shoes is that it was, my stride length was absolutely shorter and I definitely was not the heel strike anymore. It was more of, as you say, that sort of that mid to forefoot strike. That sounds like a heavy, that sounds like a hard word, but.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (39:23.554)
Mm-hmm.
Kim (39:37.482)
Yeah, that was totally my experience. That's such an interesting, I can't wait to see that study, that's really cool. So, okay, I want to talk about footwear and then also exercise that we can do. So we've kind of alluded to a few things like calf stretches, hamstring lengthening, posterior pelvic floor. What other exercises would you say, and I think I'm going to know what your answer is going to be, but what are other things that we
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (39:41.806)
Yeah, super cool.
Mm-hmm.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (40:02.532)
Hehehe
Kim (40:07.076)
make them more resilient and manage those loads better. So up the chain, we will also have better function.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (40:15.05)
Yeah. Okay. So I have a list besides just walking in minimal footwear and honestly spending five minutes a day barefoot. If you're not already doing that, no slippers, no socks, barefoot in your home and increasing that five minutes a day. If you can adding a minute every single day to tolerance. That's a really excellent progression. Most of the time people.
end up it's like, oh, it's an hour and I've already done the dishes and done other things and my feet are fine. So they increase at a faster rate. So practice with that. Literally connecting with your toes. This is the woo part. A lot of people don't know where their feet are in space. And I was watching some continuing ed the other day and this guy was a PE teacher and he was saying all these like five and six year olds, they're wearing these Nikes.
or other top brand shoes, right? That are the stylish popular shoes right now in schools. And they have a huge heel and cushion and the kids don't know where their feet are. And so he has them take off their shoes and figure out how to balance on their own feet. So literally take off your shoes, touch your toes. It's not creepy. It's not weird, right? Feet are great. They're, they're part of our bodies. And so.
Kim (41:13.959)
Mm-hmm.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (41:36.714)
You can even try to weave your fingers in between your toes, like a makeshift toe spacer, figure out how your feet move, wiggle them around, connect with your toes, and you will feel the ground better after doing that. You can do some specific like foot exercises. There's one called short foot, where you stand and you try to lift your arches without smashing your toes into the ground and without lifting the ball of your foot off the ground.
So you're shortening the distance between the ball of your foot and your heel. Kind of challenging to do. Really. You can isolate each of those muscles. You can try to pick up your big toe and then the next toe. And, um, that's pretty challenging. Toe yoga, toga, a lot of people call it. Um, you can just be careful what you're searching on the internet. Um, um, you can also do some specific.
Kim (42:26.19)
I'm going to go to bed.
Kim (42:31.626)
Yeah.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (42:36.55)
isolation of the gluteus medius where you're doing like a hip list. Katie moment has a hip list. That's easy to find. Um, but all of these things are strengthened if you balance on a balance beam. So you can have fun and it can be a challenge for you and enjoyable rather than doing like, okay, I'm going to do my physical therapy exercise. I got to do 10 of these and 10 of these, like go play on a beam for 20 minutes.
and your feet and your core will be way more connected and you'll have fun doing it. So that's one of my favorite ways to strengthen. And then just doing your exercises barefoot. So making sure you can spread your toes, do your deadlifts that way, do your squats that way, do everything else barefoot and start to reconnect with the ground and your feet. And it's kind of like the core breath for pelvic floor. Once you learn it.
Once you reconnect with it, then if you add it to every other exercise that you're doing, it becomes the core exercise. So once you connect with your feet and learn how to activate your feet, then every other exercise that you do can be a foot exercise if you take your shoes off. Yeah.
Kim (43:48.026)
Right. Yeah, a lot of in the show notes will be Natalie's social media. But a lot of times her posts are her bounding through trails and.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (44:00.962)
Hehehe.
Kim (44:02.698)
root systems and rocks and all sorts of things barefoot and doing as you say, just go balance but find places where you can you don't have to have necessarily a balance beam. You could go find a log or you could find a rock or you know and do that in nature and I remember going to when I was studying with Katie Bowman and going to her in Squim Washington. We spent a week there it was like this week-long intensive a part of the certification and it was November it was
Pacific Northwest, cold, rainy, and we went out barefoot and of course most of us are like, what? Tater's freezing out, you know, but we all we did it and we found it was really the rest of our body was fine. It wasn't below, you know, it wasn't freezing outside. It was chilly but walking through moss and twigs and stones and there was certain times where you'd step on something and it would hurt but there was other times where it was just this
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (44:46.999)
Mm-hmm.
Kim (45:00.502)
beautiful exploration of walking in nature. And we sorely miss that in our day-to-day life. So I knew your answer was gonna be go walk barefoot, but. Um.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (45:09.223)
Mm-hmm.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (45:13.287)
Yes. And also like a caveat to say, don't be dumb and go outside. Like in Alaska, it's very, very cold and there's a ton of snow. So obviously protective footwear is mandatory and necessary. Like if you want to do a cold plunge real quick and go out in the snow, but don't get frostbite. Don't be dumb that way. But yeah.
Kim (45:22.066)
Yes.
Kim (45:27.799)
Yep.
Kim (45:31.914)
Yep. Perfect transition into footwear. So back to, you know, whatever it was 13, 14 years ago, when I was transitioning the Vibram five fingers was that was kind of all there was for a minimal shoe. And then there was a couple of other brands that came along that took the five finger philosophy, but didn't have the goofy five finger look for the people that didn't want that. And now, oh my gosh, the world of
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (45:46.934)
Yum.
Kim (45:59.758)
Minimal shoes has just absolutely exploded. Somebody else I want to tag in the notes is Anya. Anya's reviews, an amazing website reviews footwear and also shows you how to make them stylish because for so long they were also kind of goofy looking. Right. And so minimal shoes have come a really long way. Are there things we should like? What should we look for? What constitutes a minimal shoe? Maybe what are some of your favorite brands? I can name some of mine as well.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (46:07.362)
Mm-hmm.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (46:29.098)
Yeah, yeah. So any shoe that you get, you can make more minimal usually. So you might be able to adjust your current inventory of shoes so it can be a little bit more budget friendly. The things that you're looking for are wide toe box. So wider in the toes than the rest of the shoe, the rest of the foot. You're looking for flexible.
So can you roll it up into a ball? Can you, if you have the shoe, can you fold it in half? Can you twist it side to side? The more flexible, the better. If you are transitioning and going slower, then you want a little bit more flexible than super stiff and over time you'll get there. You also want a flat shoe. So no increased height from the heel to the toe. And a good way to determine how flat your shoes actually are is take the
lay it in front of you and see if there's any increased thickness because a lot of times shoes will look flat from the outside and you're like, oh yeah, they don't even have a heel, but they have a heel on the inside. So that's something to, to be aware of. So wide, flat, flexible. And then the last one is secure to your foot. So clogs that are slip ons that I used to wear, flip flops, slide on slippers, anything that
you could potentially lose off your foot. It's not fully secure to your foot. It causes your toes to grip and that gripping isn't supposed to happen when you land on your toes, right? They're supposed to spread out and be relaxed. And so if you're gripping with your feet, then oftentimes it leads to more gripping with your hip flexors and picking up your foot prematurely because subconsciously you're worried about your shoe flying off. And so then you end up with
tight hip flexors, which can lead to quad dominance, which can lead to, you know, not using your glutes properly, not getting full hip extension, not using your hamstrings. So it's a slew of other issues that we can avoid with just making sure our, our shoes are secure. Um, there are so many brands, so many brands and yeah, Anya is awesome. She reviews, she reviews shoes and she tells you, she has a quiz on her website too, to determine like
Kim (48:32.119)
Mm-hmm.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (48:44.594)
Is your foot high volume from the top of your foot to the bottom of your foot? How, what is that depth? So if you have a low volume foot, a medium volume foot or high volume foot, she gives you the brands of minimal footwear that work well for different types of feet.
Kim (48:58.658)
So is the volume meaning like your arch? Like what does volume actually meaning? I don't understand that.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (49:03.05)
Essentially, yeah, I guess it would include your arch. So from the ground to the top of your foot, right in front of your ankle, that's the volume measurement. And so some people have lower volume feet, and they might slide around in some brands of shoes, versus other people might need to loosen the laces on some shoes. So she has a great quiz and reviews what types of shoes that are good for you.
you're looking for hiking or sandals or whatever. My absolute favorite for the summer is the earth runners sandals. I love those. They're so secure. They don't slip around when you when you're walking through streams and hiking in the rain for winter. Right now, I'm loving the zero alpine boots because they're they have traction and they're probably the warmest boot outside of Steger mucklucks that I've tried.
and they have a really good ground feel and traction. So those are my top two winter and summer currently. Yeah, what are your current favorite brands? I'm curious.
Kim (50:13.45)
Well, I might have a new favorite coming. So I've ordered from Pureco and that's my first time ordering from them. They have one that looks quite stylish and I think will become my travel, but also day to day shoe. Like if I'm, if I'm fitness attire, I'm usually in Altra. So Altra has been a favorite brand of mine and they have various, we should touch on cushioning really quick, but they have various styles and
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (50:17.791)
Yes.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (50:33.204)
Mm-hmm.
Kim (50:44.65)
amount of cushioning and part of the reason I transitioned to them was I was in minimal vibrams and in Vancouver with rain and cold and sometimes snow a little bit but it being so close to the ground my feet were freezing and wet all the time which is not great. And so Alters came along and I did like those. I did like a little bit of extra cushioning but their terminology is zero drop.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (50:59.138)
Yes. Yeah.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (51:09.229)
Mm-hmm.
Kim (51:10.082)
And the pair that I'd had before that, the company that I'd pride was Lems, which is negative heel, meaning the heel is lower than the forefoot. I really like those as well. They had nice toe box. So I sort of went Vibram, then I went to Lems, then I went to Altras. And now I'm because style is coming in a little bit more. So I have one from B. Lenka, a little kind of ankle boot that I really like. I know you have one that you wear, sort of a suede one.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (51:34.082)
Mm-hmm.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (51:39.212)
Yeah.
Kim (51:40.496)
I have a couple of zeros that have been delivered to my brother's house because they don't ship to Canada So I don't know I can't rate those ones yet, but I did try yours on when I was in Alaska And I really like those ones as well And then these Pirko, I'll tell you about the Pirko when I when I receive them. They're on the way, so yeah
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (51:46.539)
Oh no.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (51:55.318)
Nice. Yeah, there's so many options and even I'm, I'm forgetting the name of the brand right now. Andy Bryant was talking about them and Anya was talking about them as well. And the foot collective was talking about them, but they have, they come with maybe three or four different insoles and they they're designed to be progressively transitioning you to barefoot. So they come with thicker and
Kim (52:20.678)
Oh.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (52:22.486)
progressively thinner insoles that you swap out when you're feeling good. And I think that's a really awesome concept because it allows you to have more cushion and even have the option to go up in cushion when you need it. Um, and yeah, I'm okay with it. I used to not be okay with it. I kind of went to the extreme, like everybody needs to be absolutely barefoot and this is the only way, but obviously there's injuries that happen and comfort.
Kim (52:35.383)
Yep.
So what are your thoughts on cushioning?
Kim (52:46.125)
I'm sorry.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (52:52.094)
is a consideration as well. And yeah, same thing here. Like if you have a lot of ground feel in your shoe, there's not very much shoe between you and the ground and your feet get numb and cold and that's not ideal. So cushion is okay as long as it's still zero drop. So that's the, the my take on it. If you're lifting barefoot, hard ground or very minimal shoe.
Kim (53:12.979)
yet.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (53:20.394)
you're running and you need a little bit of cushion, great, but typically you're able to run if you're in a zero drop cushion shoe you're typically able to run in that more natural gait pattern with the midfoot forefoot strike. So yeah, yeah.
Kim (53:31.202)
Right. Yeah, yeah. Very cool. Okay, well, I've taken up a lot of your time. Where can people find more about you and learn about your work and maybe even work with you if they happen to be in the Alaska area?
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (53:47.374)
Yeah, yeah, you can find me online at trainer Natalie.com. That's where you'll find links to everything that I offer. Um, I also have the resource doula podcast. So if you like listening to podcasts, you can add that to your, to your list. And then I'm on social media. I'm on Facebook, Instagram, I am on tick tock. Um, and it's all trainer Natalie. Some of the handles have an H at the very end of that.
Kim (54:08.694)
You're brave.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (54:15.498)
I couldn't get them all to be the same. So those are the places that you'll find me. Yeah.
Kim (54:20.818)
Awesome and we'll have all that in the show notes but thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your knowledge with us and have a great night.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (54:23.682)
Perfect.
Natalie Headdings - Trainer Natalie (54:29.874)
Absolutely. Thank you, Kim.
Kim (54:32.066)
Thank you.
