Kim (00:01.442)
Hi Daphne, welcome. I'm really looking forward to our chat today. We've spoken in the past about your amazing, the amazing venture that you're on and I'm looking forward to sharing that with the listeners today. So can we start out with having you introduce yourself? Tell us a little bit about your background and what led you to the business that you are now working on.
Daphne Petrich (00:26.222)
Yeah, thanks for having me. If I have to reflect on this, I think 10 years ago, or even five years ago, I would have never thought I would have launched a sexual health solution. I was even reflecting on this today, my relationship with intimacy. I was definitely influenced by all the societal stigma around these topics, even...
until college, I was asking my friends to buy tampons for me because I felt too ashamed to do it myself in the store. So I don't know if 18 year old Daphne would be ashamed or proud of where I am today, but I'm certainly very happy with the direction my career has taken. My academic background is in business and international relations. And I spent a few years in consulting.
Kim (01:08.482)
Hehehehehehe
Daphne Petrich (01:24.562)
and actually without choosing it, it chose me in a way. So my first project was for a big consumer packaging goods company and I was working on their menstrual product strategy and then my second product or project was on hair removal for women. So in all of these scenarios, I was really pushed to study and better understand how
women perceive their own femininity and what products they look for to meet their needs. And in a lot of cases, the outcome was always that our society is sending a message that's not always very helpful and that they are always left to their own devices regarding care. So I guess a good example would be in the hair removal project where...
where I basically had to help this brand understand that although they sell razors, sharing the message that having body hair is ugly, bad, or unhygienic is not actually gonna get them to sell more, but rather helping women feel comfortable, happy, and confident in their bodies, and that if at some point they do wanna get rid of their hair, they should choose them. So kind of helping these brands change their paradigm.
And so these projects led me to really...
want and seek out an impact-led career. And I actually ended up moving to Germany to join a mental health company. And mental health was and is my biggest passion. I'm a mental health advocate. And somehow, Hello Gina happened to me as well in a crazy turn of events. So my role two years ago was about international expansion. So how can we take online programs that...
Kim (03:18.178)
Thank you.
Daphne Petrich (03:29.07)
support people with mental health conditions, how can I bring this into the US? And very quickly it became evident that Halogina was the best product to be launching and the most impactful product to be launching.
Kim (03:46.594)
Amazing. And so as, you know, it's amazing, I use a, it sort of found you and that's often how I describe my own experience as well, where I didn't certainly grow up thinking that I was gonna be focused on vaginal health and pelvic health and then use this term vagina coach. And I remember cringing about the word vagina as well too when I was younger, I remember my mom teaching me sex ed with my brother and I thought, oh my gosh, like it was just awful to sit there and learn about this with your brother sitting there. But.
I'm also grateful for the fact that she was open and transparent with the information for us. So, so it's funny where our paths take us. So mental health is a big component for you. That was one of your kind of the first when you're working with business, that was one of the first projects that you had as well. It's your huge advocate. So Hello Gina. Is it a mental health company?
Daphne Petrich (04:39.796)
So, Hello Better, the German company is certainly a mental health company.
Kim (04:49.85)
Oh, we lost you there for a sec, hang on. It just froze there for a second. So, okay, so my question was, is Hello Gina a mental health company?
Daphne Petrich (04:52.183)
Yep.
Daphne Petrich (05:02.07)
I would say Halogena is a sexual health company.
Daphne Petrich (05:12.545)
froze again.
Kim (05:13.371)
We keep freezing, it doesn't want us to answer that question.
Daphne Petrich (05:17.078)
Every time I say sexual health, it blocks.
Kim (05:23.369)
Okay, so Hello Gina is it is Hello Gina a mental health company?
Daphne Petrich (05:34.178)
Yeah, I think Halogina is probably the intersection between mental health and women's health. There's a lot of intersections there. I guess it's important to reflect on our mother company. In the end, Halogina is just a sub-brand of Hello Better. And Hello Better is a German-based mental health company and a pioneer in mental health research. So we actually started as a research project at a famous German university.
And the objective was to identify if there are ways to deliver therapeutic support in a self-paced digital format. And the reason behind this is that when we asked thousands of people, why aren't you in therapy, the answer was not, it's too hard to find a therapist, I don't know where to start, et cetera. The answer was actually, I'd rather sort this out on my own.
I would like to approach this on my own. And so the whole premise behind our company is that we empower people to help themselves by giving them science-backed tools. And Hello Gina fits perfectly into that. It's just that it's applied to painful intercourse.
Kim (06:51.65)
So I love the, again, hearing the history and seeing the evolution. So you joined Hello Better kind of on the mental health side, you're a big mental health advocate. And then as you said before, you had your own kind of personal stigmas, wouldn't buy tampons for yourself. And now what led you, was it your kind of thinking saying, hey, we need this element of our business or was somebody else creating that and then asked you to join? Like how was the evolution of you?
now being in the Hello Gina component.
Daphne Petrich (07:26.138)
Yeah, that's a great question. In the end, we have six different programs that treat depression, burnout, insomnia, chronic pain, and then you have vaginismus. And how did we get to picking vaginismus? I'm sorry for the bell. Do you want me to repeat that or? And so how did we go about picking vaginismus? Well,
Kim (07:48.494)
Okay, no, no problem.
Daphne Petrich (07:57.678)
We started looking at it through the lens of what's the prevalence, but also how many people are actually content with the way that this is being diagnosed and treated. And the second question is what led us to, um, altogether, the whole management team, the board and myself unanimously saying, well, this is the one area where really the status quo is, is unacceptable. Really. I mean, if we look at how many people experience pain during intercourse,
it's close to 20 percent. And in our studies, so when we studied the efficacy of our program, we found that...
out of 200 people who we evaluated our program on, it was an average symptom duration of eight years. So that means that for eight years on average, this is not the highest, this is the average, women were experiencing pain during intercourse. And for me, this is representative of the problem and this is why we decided to do it. And so to answer your question, yeah.
I went from mental health advocate to pleasure activist is the way that I frame it and I really believe...
Daphne Petrich (09:24.946)
Can you hear me?
Kim (09:26.862)
So you went from mental health advocate to kind of sexual wellness advocate, and was there, like what highlighted vaginismus in particular? Was there something during questioning in other parts of Hello Better that highlighted vaginismus, or was it somebody on the team saying, I think this is a part of mental health and we need to talk about it?
Daphne Petrich (09:57.943)
I didn't hear your question. I'm trying to close some applications but I didn't have any issues with internet today. So I'm not sure that will help so much.
Kim (10:15.406)
Okay, I'm just marking the clips and we can edit them out. So I'll ask the question again.
Daphne Petrich (10:18.15)
rates.
Kim (10:21.986)
So when it comes to vaginismus, was that highlighted as like in the other parts of Hello Better with maybe questionnaires that you were sending out to people, was pain with sex or vaginismus being highlighted as a point and then all of a sudden you're like, hey, we should address this or was there maybe somebody on the team that said this is a part of mental health that I think deserves a platform under the Hello Better brand?
Daphne Petrich (10:50.702)
Yeah, that's actually really interesting because for all of our programs, we conducted focus groups. And so usually the way we do that is that we send out an email to all of our subscribers and we say, Hey, we're doing a focus group. Are you interested in taking part? And we got at least five to 10 times more applicants for our vaginismus focus group than we did for something like depression.
And I think that's really representative of the demand for solution. And this is a reflection of the lack of solutions or at least the lack of perceived solutions because back to that seven year on average statistic I shared earlier, when we asked, why haven't you looked for care? It's because the number one stated reason was I didn't know that there was treatment available. So a lot of...
women who have vaginismus are actually unaware that this is a diagnosable or treatable condition.
Kim (11:57.762)
Alright, so let's talk about what, we've said the term a few times, what is vaginismus?
Daphne Petrich (12:04.53)
So vaginismus is the involuntary contraction of the muscles around the vagina, the pelvic floor muscles, during attempted penetration. So what does that mean? It means that inserting tampons, having sexual intercourse, or receiving a gynecological exam are all either uncomfortable, painful, or downright impossible. When I speak to people who have vaginismus,
they describe it as a feeling like they're hitting a wall or this very sharp stinging sensation upon entry. So they feel the sting and this tightness that overwhelms them.
Kim (12:53.442)
And what causes that? And is it something that people are, you know, have for their entire life, or is it something that develops over time?
Daphne Petrich (13:03.098)
Yeah, so there's actually two types of vaginismus, primary and secondary. Primary means that you've experienced this your whole life. So from the first insertion attempt, usually it would be probably, um, trying to insert a tampon. And then secondary is that it develops throughout your life at some point. Um, there's this, uh, perception that vaginismus is
only trauma-based, so is for people who have experienced a traumatic experience. But actually the vast majority of at least our customers have no idea and can't pinpoint one specific event that led to this diagnosis. But in terms of causes, it's pretty crazy, but vaginismus is so under-researched that there is no medical cause, but there are really well-documented risk factors.
What that means is that we are able to show that statistically these events are linked to vaginismus, but we don't necessarily know exactly what causes it. And so these risk factors can be a complicated surgery, recurring infections, perimenopause, but they can also be psychological, like anxiety or negative feelings around sex.
Maybe, you know, I was just speaking to a customer the other day and she was telling me about how her religious upbringing has probably been a very strong causal factor in her experience of sexuality and of intimacy. And why am I saying this actually? Because she had been to pelvic floor physical therapy and she had seen
great results, but the moment that she stopped practicing every single day, stopped inserting dilators every single day, she basically took a one month break. And then, it's like all the work was erased, or at least that's how she felt. And so for individuals like her, for who these psychological factors are pretty important, this is where Halogina can play.
Daphne Petrich (15:26.338)
a powerful role in overcoming the symptoms.
Kim (15:32.326)
I just want to go back, there was a slight pause in one of the sounds that you had said, and what you were saying about how there's a kind of perception that, and then it stopped for a period of time, and then you went in and I allowed it to keep going with what you were saying because it was amazing. So there's a, what is the perception? So I think it's, you're going to say it's an incorrect perception that vaginismus is caused by something. What is that?
Daphne Petrich (15:58.734)
Yeah, so a lot of people believe that vaginismus is caused by trauma and is a response to trauma. But in a lot of cases, people have no idea what has led to the onset of these symptoms and the pain that they experience.
Kim (16:16.17)
And so as you say, usually there's not necessarily symptoms on a day-to-day basis. It's the symptoms present themselves when there's an attempt at something being inserted into the vagina, is that correct?
Daphne Petrich (16:29.282)
Exactly. So, I mean, not everyone needs to go into treatment. Some people cope with avoidance and are perfectly happy with it. So vaginismus is really only manifesting itself during moments where you're trying to insert. Yes.
Kim (16:49.186)
And I think that that's a really valuable point for many aspects of health, that there could be some symptoms or something in our body presenting itself as quote unquote, not normal. But if it's not distressing to the person and they have coping techniques that are helpful for them, then perhaps it's not a problem.
Daphne Petrich (17:14.87)
I heard if it's not distressing to the person, then it's flawed.
Kim (17:19.166)
Yeah, so if it's if the person has some symptoms that is maybe associated with a diagnosable condition, but the symptoms aren't necessarily. Distressing so if they're not maybe interfering completely with this person's quality of life as you say they may have avoidance and be totally happy with that. They don't necessarily need to seek treatment unless it's something that's getting in the way or there's a level of bother.
Daphne Petrich (17:44.982)
100%. I think I take this from this hair removal project in my early career, right? Where I had to help this brand understand, you don't need to make everyone your customer by telling them they don't need hair. It's the same for Hello Gina, right? Not everyone needs to make insertion possible. It's just that if this is a desire,
you can make this possible and we will do our best to help you reach these goals.
Kim (18:19.138)
So maybe if you can describe a little bit of kind of the hello better. So what the technology piece of hello better is you've sort of highlighted it very quickly and then also how that has translated into hello Gina. So what exactly is like how does it help people with whether it's the mental health component. You could argue sometimes there's some mental health component to vaginismus, but the vaginismus piece as well. So how is the technology helping?
Daphne Petrich (18:48.814)
Yeah, so I can talk about HelloGina's product. So HelloGina combines three main components. The first is science-backed techniques. So in the end, it's a 12-week program that's self-guided. So you kind of go through it at your own pace and take the time you need to reflect on each exercises.
and you would go through one module each week. So some people finish it in 12 weeks, some people take a bit longer. It really depends on your individual situation. So these science-backed techniques are developed and written by psychologists based on the latest scientific findings on vaginismus. So it includes psychoeducation, but it also includes elements like
cognitive restructuring. So what do I mean by that? How can we help you turn a thought that actually
Kim (19:57.314)
Sorry, Daphne, I just need to, it stopped where you said it includes elements of psychoeducation and then you said it also includes elements of, so can you just start from there? It also includes elements of.
Daphne Petrich (20:13.49)
So it combines psychoeducation with cognitive behavioral therapy elements. And these can be cognitive restructuring exercises or other exercises to help you change your perspective. So CBT or cognitive behavioral therapy, I think, is used every day, but not everyone realizes what it's actually trying to achieve.
Cognitive behavioral therapy is just a technique to help people break out of unhealthy thinking patterns or behaviors. And in the case of vaginismus, although the cause is not always certain, the way that it's maintained is. And so we have a lot of science that shows that the fear of pain can actually exacerbate the pain. And our program really focuses and double clicks on this cycle of pa-
of pain and fear. And so cognitive restructuring is a very powerful exercise to help people achieve just that. And so what does that mean? It means that if you're entering a scenario where maybe you want to be intimate with someone, how do different thoughts actually lead to the feeling of pain? And so it could be, you know, what...
psychologists call a catastrophizing thought. And this would be like, I'm never going to manage to do this. This is never going to happen. This is going to hurt so much. I don't want to do this. So a thought that has already decided on the outcome of the situation. And so our program helps people try to reframe those thoughts to rather, I don't feel like I'm ready. Maybe let's try to slow down a little bit or.
you know, introducing more lube or trying to enter a more solutions focused scenario rather than my destiny has already been written and so the program takes you through content in various formats so some videos some audio some myth-busting exercises to help you not just absorb these different concepts, but actually
Daphne Petrich (22:37.25)
apply them to your own scenario and situation. That's the first problem. Oh, sorry.
Kim (22:42.186)
And is it, yeah, it's gonna say, okay, so yeah, carry on. That's the first element.
Daphne Petrich (22:46.554)
So that's number one, science-backed techniques. Number two will be much shorter. It's the coaching element. It's shorter, but it's really probably what our customers love the most, the fact that there is a real human being that's reading through your entries, that's tracking your progress, and that's there for you when you need them. And so our coaches are available via text. And
their role is really to keep you motivated and keep you on track, but also to assist throughout. You know, sometimes we have some insertion exercises or some pelvic floor relaxation exercises and it's not always so obvious, so they can just be there to answer the practical questions. And the third component and final component is it's on the app and it's a really beautiful
journal where you can track your progress throughout and track your mood, but also set goals. So really the promise of Hello Gina is that it makes it as easy as possible for you to set goals and stick to them. And so in the program this goal setting feature, it's really there.
for you to keep yourself accountable, but also not to lose motivation. So we have different ways of visualizing the outcomes.
Kim (24:22.082)
Sorry, it just froze there as you went into goal setting. So just start again from the goal setting.
Daphne Petrich (24:30.261)
Um...
Kim (24:31.05)
So it's the process of the journal and people can track certain things and they can set goals. And so what's the value of the goal setting?
Daphne Petrich (24:40.59)
And they can set goals and also visualize their progress through beautiful illustrations, but also the text entries that they've updated or uploaded throughout the weeks.
Kim (24:53.206)
That's amazing. So that did you, you answered one of my questions, which was, is it housed in an app, which you said it is, and can people, I know I run an, I use an app in my, my business. And there are some people who may not be as familiar with functionalities of apps. So there is a place they can log in through a website. Is that something that is accessible for people through Hello Gina as well?
Daphne Petrich (25:14.326)
Yeah, 100%. We can be accessed on a computer. And actually in order to buy access to HelloGina that can only be done on the computer, but then once you log in for the first time, then you can switch to the app.
Kim (25:30.67)
Amazing. And with the, I want to come back to the coaches. Cause I think, as you say, it's, it wasn't a huge amount to describe it, but it's often one of the most valuable parts. And especially in this day and age of AI and everything being automated and we, you know, calling somebody, you get 50 million different messages that aren't really a real human and we just want to talk to a real person. So who, who are the coaches? Are they people who are they professionally trained in?
managing mental health or pelvic health, or is it people who have gone through the experience of using Helodena with their own vaginismus journey?
Daphne Petrich (26:11.394)
Yeah, so actually our head coach, Charlotte, co-developed Hello Gina, or the German version of Hello Gina, and she was part of its evaluation. So she's been there since day one and spoke to a lot of our trial participants, and she adapted the contents of the program based on the findings of the first study and then helped with the second study.
Daphne Petrich (26:42.402)
Actually the biggest difference between the first and second iterations was the involvement of pain management techniques. So this, this whole idea around, you know, accepting that pain might happen without considering it a done deal. Yeah. But yeah, so Charlotte oversees all of our coaches. All our coaches are female psychologists.
Some of them are psychotherapists and others are psychotherapists in training. And they all have to get some personalized training from Charlotte upon onboarding to make sure that beyond psychology, they're well trained to answer someone with vaginismus needs.
Kim (27:33.614)
Okay, it just cut out slightly there. So I think what you said is they're all psychotherapists and they were all sort of received training from Charlotte in terms of kind of the overall management of it. Is that accurate? Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. I love that that's a big piece of it. And I find that in my own practice as well, that the coaching calls are where people, everything starts to kind of make a little bit more sense or they get to connect with other people or.
Daphne Petrich (27:45.593)
Yes.
Kim (28:02.738)
even just one person being myself, just to have somebody holding their hand through the process. Cause when you're, you know, it's great to have everything in an app and have things accessible. And there are some people who are totally happy and capable to just have access to that, which is so super valuable. But then there's that other component of having the, the coaching and kind of the hand holding along the way, which I think is so valuable. Right on the main, like when you go to your website, the very first,
section says mind-body, a mind-body approach to overcoming pain with sex, painful sex and why? Well first of all vaginismus is
Kim (28:52.174)
Sorry, okay, I'll carry on. First of all, vaginismus is one component of painful sex. Is that the only thing, like is vaginismus the only painful sex reason? Is that the only reason why somebody would have pain with sex, I guess is where I'll start.
Daphne Petrich (29:15.818)
No, so there are many documented reasons behind painful sex.
Daphne Petrich (29:31.462)
Some people experience pain on touch.
Kim (29:38.038)
Just start again with, I don't know what's wrong with the internet here. Mine looks like it's totally strong here too. Like it doesn't, yeah, it's totally fine. But just start with there are many documented reasons and what the other reasons are.
Daphne Petrich (29:52.314)
Yeah, so there's many documented reasons for or behind painful sex. There's vulvodynia and other vulvar conditions. So this is when the pain is not, you know, in the vagina, it's actually on the vulva. So the external region of the genitalia. And for these, it's really pain that is experienced immediately upon touch.
Kim (30:23.726)
Carry on.
Daphne Petrich (30:24.022)
Yeah. And then there are other reasons that include, for example, vaginal atrophy, right? So you've addressed this a lot in your, in your podcast. So I'm sure your audience is very well aware of this, but you know, when it's, it can be completely caused via or due to a change, a rapid change in hormones.
And in this case, it's not really vaginismus. It's this perunia caused by a rapid decline of estrogen.
Kim (30:58.674)
Right. And so then the kind of what I was originally leading towards asking is it states a mind-body approach to painful sex. So why is a mind-body, what is a mind-body approach and why is that important?
Daphne Petrich (31:16.622)
Yeah, I mean, if you have or experience pain during intercourse, I think the number one thing to do is go see an OBGYN, ideally read through the reviews and look on their websites, see if they talk about dyspareunia, which is the medical term for painful intercourse or vaginismus to see if they're trained to treat these conditions. And then it could be
that in a lot of cases there's a medical cause, what I was saying earlier, right?
Daphne Petrich (31:57.37)
It could be that there's a medical cause. Can I continue there?
Kim (31:59.726)
Yeah, carry on there.
Daphne Petrich (32:01.902)
It could be that there is a medical cause that can be treated with hormone replacement therapy, for example. But it could also be that there is now a psychological element that needs to be provided. So in the case of perimenopausal individuals, of course, painful intercourse is quite common due to the vaginal dryness. But for a lot of women, they'd do
don't really approach their medical providers with this due to shame, stigma, a whole wide variety of reasons. And so sometimes vaginismus does develop as a result. And so in this case, you would need your HCP to consider both, you know, the medical approach, so maybe explore the use of hormones, but also the psychological support. And so our approach is really the mind body approach.
which is about helping you reconnect with your body, more specifically your vagina. And so we use the term mind-body because that's really what we're trying to do. I get so many people reaching out and talking about how they feel their vagina is broken or how they feel that they're so alienated. So there's really this cognitive...
dissonance or the separation between me and this part or this region of my body. And what's powerful about Halogina is that it really enables that connection through knowledge, through education, and then through these physical and psychological exercises, right? Earlier I spoke about cognitive restructuring, but there's also, you know, an exercise where you just look at your volva in the mirror and, and a lot of people.
can find maybe at first some strong negative emotions when they start that exercise. But at the end, they might feel more connected with this part of their body at the end.
Kim (34:21.038)
strong negative emotions with that exercise but carry on.
Daphne Petrich (34:26.854)
but they end up...
Daphne Petrich (34:31.146)
Ugh, I don't know where I was.
Kim (34:33.59)
Yeah, so they look at their Volvo with a mirror and they may see some, they may have some strong negative emotions at first, but.
Daphne Petrich (34:40.13)
at twice, but ultimately they come out of the exercise having regained a new understanding of their bodies and a closer relationship with that area of their body.
Kim (34:54.306)
Yeah, that's amazing. So how many, you don't have to disclose the exact numbers, but how long has Hello Gina, how long has Hello Gina been offered as a service? How many people have gone through the program and how, like what's the typical length of time for people to experience some sort of change?
Daphne Petrich (35:15.366)
So this really, really depends. We've had over 600 people use our program. And some people, the reason this question is difficult to answer is that some people just want to insert a tampon. Some people just want to consume the program, but don't actually want to practice the exercises. And some people want to have sex with their husbands. And so.
that journey is gonna look so different based on the objective that you have. But in general, I think that what's powerful about the program is that it gives people agency over their bodies and empowerment to work on themselves. Because buying this program is a commitment to sitting down one or two hours each week.
to work on their relationship with themselves, with intimacy, and have that self-reflection.
Kim (36:24.962)
Sorry, you said it's a commitment to sitting down one or two hours each week.
Daphne Petrich (36:32.866)
Um, yeah, it's, it's a commitment to, to themselves. It's, it's a commitment to improving their own relationship with intimacy and with themselves. And a lot of times, um, prospects, so people who, who haven't yet purchased access to the program, um, talk about the extrinsic motivations. So I want to be like the others or
I'd like to do this for my husband. There are often a lot of times reasons that don't come from the actual individual. And at the end of the program, it always really warms my heart to see that the key benefits that are highlighted are, I feel so liberated, or I will never lose touch with myself or my body in this way, or I discovered...
my pleasure finally after all these years. So it's really beautiful to see this journey from I guess external pressure to internal, an internal sense of confidence and satisfaction.
Kim (37:50.966)
Yeah, that's amazing. That's a beautiful place to end. I think that this is such an incredible platform that you have built and such a needed service. And I'm really looking forward to seeing how many more people you're going to benefit with this. It's so needed and so valuable. And I think the way that mind-body approach that you have is perfect. So thank you for sharing your wisdom about.
your background and about HelloGena itself. Where can people find more about HelloGena so they can get help?
Daphne Petrich (38:26.298)
Yeah, so they can visit our website, hellojeanehealth.com and they can read about the program, get in touch with me if they have any questions. And yeah, I can't thank you enough for inviting me to speak at your podcast. I think you're doing such important work. Everyone should know about pelvic floor physical therapy. And yeah, I'm really happy to be exploring the...
how to combine halogena with pelvic floor physical therapy these days. I think if we can scale this or turn this into, I don't know, the Viagra of intercourse, of painful intercourse for people with vaginas, that would be success for me.
Kim (39:12.642)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's huge. I love that. Thank you so much, Daphne. I really appreciate you taking the time.
Daphne Petrich (39:20.454)
Thank you.
