Kim Vopni (00:02.029)
Karen Martel, your name, I probably say it, I don't know, like at least 10 times a week, either in my coaching calls or in my community. Go check out Karen's podcast, go check out Karen, go check out Karen's products. And so you've been on the show before you're a returning guest. Thank you very much for joining us again. And we like the angle we're kind of wanting to cover today is a little bit more about the.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (00:19.846)
Cap. Yes.
Kim Vopni (00:31.192)
vulvovaginal health, the GSM, genitourinary syndrome, menopause that happens often after we've, you know, well, we've been in menopause for maybe five or 10 years, but also the other changes visibly to our skin and our hair. And so talking about what those changes are, why they're happening, the estrogen, the hormone component, that's your area of expertise is really hormone health.
hormones in general, midlife health, guess. But before we go, just as a for anybody maybe who hasn't listened to the other episodes, I'll link them in the show notes. what who are you? What brought you to specialize in this hormone midlife space with your podcast and your products?
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (01:17.402)
All right, well, I won't give you the super long version because they can go back maybe and listen to our older podcast, which Kim, you were one of my first guests like in the first year or two that I had my podcast, which was a very long time ago.
Kim Vopni (01:23.447)
Yes.
Kim Vopni (01:32.086)
We met in clubhouse. It was COVID. was in clubhouse and COVID. That's how we met.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (01:38.576)
Oh yeah, I was gonna say it was back in like 2019. So there we go. That's so interesting. Yeah. It's a long time. We've come a long ways haven't we? And I talk about you just as much. I always like to talk about you just because I like to tell everybody the name. Go listen between two lips. The buff muff. I just want to say all your names because it's always like people are like, oh that's so cute. Oh, I love that.
Kim Vopni (01:42.166)
Yeah, yeah, interesting.
We have.
Kim Vopni (01:58.798)
You
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (02:08.186)
Hmm.
Kim Vopni (02:08.386)
Yeah, we have to, it's a heavy topic, right? We have to, we have to lighten the load a little bit, literally and figuratively in my world. We have to have a little, it's always so medical and icky and shameful and embarrassing. Like that's the words that people are using. They don't want to talk about it. So if we can bring a little fun to it with some names, then that's kind of my jam.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (02:15.867)
Yeah.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (02:30.908)
Yeah. And the stats, like I was just looking at the stats of it yesterday about just vaginal dryness and what are, know, how many women actually face this in menopause. It was like 80, 85 % I think it was. Like it was high. was like majority of us are going to have something going on down there. Right. And today I just really want to like
Kim Vopni (02:38.04)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kim Vopni (02:44.94)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's... Yeah. Yep. Yep. 1000%.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (02:53.914)
bring attention to all lips, you know, like the lips down there, the lips up here, like the beauty, the loss of youth and beauty that happens from the loss of hormones because it goes so much farther than what women think. And I got into this because.
Kim Vopni (02:57.312)
All the lips. Yes.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (03:11.964)
I went into a very early menopause at 42. I started to go into menopause, but at that time I had been a practicing nutritionist. My focus was on hormonal weight loss resistance in women because I had experienced hormonal weight loss resistance. And so I was bringing it out to the world of women.
And I thought I had everything dialed in and had it all figured out because I had figured it out for myself and I had lost the weight and I'd come out the other side. So now I'm counseling other women on how to do it. And had somebody said to me back then, you know, what's what do think your menopause is going to be like?
Kim Vopni (03:41.639)
you
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (03:50.237)
perimenopause. didn't even think about perimenopause, but I would have just thought, I'm going to have a couple months of some hot flashes and night sweats because that's what I equated menopause to. And but the rest of it, like the weight gain and stuff. No, no, no. I've got this, you know, no problem. I'm a nutritionist. You know, that's really what I thought. Like this is what I do for a living. I got this and I so did not got the guy did not have it because I for
Kim Vopni (04:11.362)
I got this, yeah.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (04:19.042)
bunch of reasons I went in and started going into menopause. And every symptom that I think somebody could have I had and it was within three months I gained 15 pounds. My skin was super super itchy. I was like I could see fine lines popping up. My pore size started changing. My hair was thinning like this was and then it carried on to six months but
Kim Vopni (04:37.774)
See you.
is going to change in years.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (04:46.466)
everything. I was hot flashing like crazy. had night sweats like crazy so I couldn't sleep. I was depressed. I couldn't get off my couch. I had no energy and I'm like what just happened to me and I was like am I just super stressed out or what you know I was trying to figure out what the heck happened and then I was at least knowledgeable enough to eventually go wait a second this is hormonal what's happening here and then I started missing my periods and they started my
Kim Vopni (04:58.254)
I just switched my stick.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (05:15.196)
my cycle was getting wonky. And so then I looked, I did some testing and I saw that, oh my gosh, I'm going into menopause at 42. How is it that this could happen to me? And it was very embarrassing. And if I think you've seen the picture, I don't know if you've seen my before and after picture, but it's horrifying. Like I hate showing it, but I also want to show it to women when I do, when I'm talking at a conference, because I want women to know that they can do
Kim Vopni (05:24.014)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (05:44.589)
everything right. They could be, I mean, I ate perfectly. I had been eating a paleo based diet for over 10 years. I took the supplements. I exercised properly. I was watching my stress levels. I didn't drink. I didn't do drugs. I didn't smoke. I was perfect, you know? And so how is it that that could still happen to me, the nutritionist? And so it can and
Women need to hear that. They need to hear that, hey, you can do everything right. And the hormonal loss can look differently for every single one of us. And women will tend to blame themselves and think that they're not doing something hard enough. I'm not eating well enough. I'm not exercising hard enough. I'm not watching myself. I'm not taking enough supplements. I'm not fasting enough. And sometimes it is just purely
because of the loss of hormones. So if you ever see anybody out there on social media, I know that you and I have discussed this and it drives us nuts where practitioners will actually state, you know, you don't need hormones. You just need to.
Eat low carb. just saw Dr. Berg talking about this. He's like, you just you've been lied to about menopause. He's got this big social media campaign going on right now where he's talking about that where you've been lied to. You just need to eat low carb. He said, watch your insulin, which to me, I'm like, Dr. Berg, do you understand your doctor of metabolic health? You should understand over anybody that
The loss of hormones, especially estradiol, can make a woman insulin resistant no matter how clean she's eating or how low carb she's eating. And I see this all the time. I've done thousands of labs at this point. And women that are health freaks that like watch everything that they put in their mouth, they have insulin resistance. They're A1Cs above average and they're borderline type two diabetes. And they're going, what?
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (07:56.989)
How is that even possible? I've had perfect blood sugar my whole life. That happened to me too. I perfect blood sugar my whole life. used to like, for us Canadians, I'm like, I'm 4.5, know, like, woo, fasting insulin. And then it jumped in that time period. It went to 0.1 before being considered insulin resistant. It was like 5.4, I think it was, or whatever it is. But anyways, point being.
this can happen to you because our hormones run the show and we've got hormone receptors everywhere on all of our cells, majority of our cells with with estradiol with progesterone, thyroid, certain thyroid hormones. So we need to start discussing and bringing awareness to the fact that we can have symptoms of perimenopause and menopause
even though we're complete health nuts are doing everything perfectly.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (09:03.545)
you're on mute.
I think there you go. Yeah.
Kim Vopni (09:07.118)
Sorry, can you hear me? Sorry. The story that you're telling is very much, is very similar to me and I didn't even know the term perimenopause at the time. I started to have all these weird symptoms, didn't know what the heck was going on. anyway, long story short, I was kind of sleuthing it myself. was in the mainstream world, everything's fine, except my ferritin was very low because I was bleeding like a murder scene every, you know, a lot. But everything was quote unquote normal and that's what kind of led me down this path of
reading books and educating myself and me being the one to ask, could I get a test for this? Mine was an autoimmune component with Hashimoto's, which is also very common in the perimenopause phase and mimics, you know, the symptoms of perimenopause, the symptoms of hypothyroidism, the symptoms of Hashimoto's all mimic themselves. And so it's like, well, which one is it? And anyway, not, I don't want to make this about me, but just very common. I hear that story a lot from people where they just
don't feel like themselves, they don't know what's happening. They're told they're normal and they don't necessarily know what to do. We, you and I are very informed, educated, and as a result, I guess, pro-hormone, pro-hormone therapy, bioidentical hormone therapy. There's other people who still believe that, I sailed through menopause, I didn't have any symptoms. Why do I need
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (10:12.261)
Yeah.
Kim Vopni (10:34.766)
hormone therapy. Can't I do it naturally? These are some of the arguments that I hear from people. And I guess we know the literature, but from your point of view, you speak, all your topics are about, specifically about hormones. Why do you believe that our health outcomes are, or do you believe, I'm putting words in your mouth, I know you do, but.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (10:40.326)
Yeah. Yep.
Kim Vopni (11:05.186)
What do you see as health outcomes for people who use and who don't use hormone therapy?
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (11:10.926)
Mm-hmm. And I don't want to ever sound like I'm putting pressure on women because you'd see that also in social media where women are like, I don't want to feel pressured. I get so much pressure from all these social media influencers that I have to start hormones. And it's not that. It's not that we're all going, you have to take hormones or you're going to fall apart or you know.
Kim Vopni (11:27.586)
Mm-hmm.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (11:39.261)
It's more about educating women about the benefits of HRT because the myths are still out there way more than the truth. And so we do have to beat the drum and we got to beat it loud so that women can get the right information so that they can make an educated decision on whether or not hormones are for them. And if they then choose to decide no hormones aren't for me,
Great. That's your choice. Absolutely run with that. But just like it can you going to get a bazillion symptoms like you and I did and be so get so much relief from hormone replacement therapy. There's the opposite end of the spectrum where women some women don't get any outward symptoms of menopause of lot of the loss of their hormones. So they're like
Kim Vopni (12:07.826)
That's your choice. Absolutely. my god. I'm just like...
Kim Vopni (12:19.278)
It's so much leaf.
Kim Vopni (12:34.606)
So they're like...
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (12:36.156)
I'm fine. I went through menopause. No problem. But that's they're relating that to the outward symptoms. There's going why didn't get hot flashes? I don't get nice sweats. I don't get a lot of vaginal dryness. So why would I use hormones? This is natural. I'm just going to go through this. Well, as I said before, we've got estradiol receptors on all of our cells. So that means that
Kim Vopni (12:44.558)
you
Kim Vopni (13:00.814)
So that means that it influences health and...
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (13:04.664)
It influences how everything is working in your body. We've got estradiol receptors on the liver. We've got our stradial receptors all over our brain, our heart, our bones. Same with progesterone, testosterone. So it goes so much beyond the hot flashes and vaginal tissue and all the things that maybe that's what all they're hearing about.
Kim Vopni (13:12.206)
The next is respond to the number of voters for our sectors.
Kim Vopni (13:21.1)
you
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (13:34.222)
And so I want to talk today about what else can hormones be doing for you on the inside that maybe you're not too, that you didn't even realize they were doing. And then you can make that decision for yourself if you want to maybe get some of those protective benefits. And when it comes to women and aging, as we all know, we have a lot of pressure on us to stay young, to stay youthful looking.
I mean, cosmetic surgery is gone through the roof. I just heard a stat about it. was just in say like, it's going up like a thousand percent. I don't know what it is, but you know, we're all botoxing and tummy tucking and doing ridiculous things and spending ridiculous amounts of money on things that will help us not to age so much in the face and to do all these laser surgeries and.
Kim Vopni (14:03.819)
Thanks.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (14:30.157)
If I botulism alone, so I just think which I do. I don't judge it. I do botox in my forehead. But what can you be doing on the inside when it comes to the hormones that will help preserve your youth? Because I tell you what, there is nothing more powerful than bioidentical hormone replacement therapy when it comes to things like your skin, your body shape.
how much you can hold on to muscle, which obviously that's an attractive thing when you're a muscular woman, you're strong, helps you with your posture. And so what do we see in a typical older woman that let's say in her 80s, we've start seeing the hunchback, the head coming forward, the skin sag, the wrinkle, the thinning of the skin, the hands.
hair loss, know, all the old ladies, got very, they have hardly any hair, most of them. This is all driven by hormones, not all, but I would say a very large portion of that is from the loss of hormones.
Kim Vopni (15:47.33)
There is a car alarm going off in the distance, so if you can hear a chronic...
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (15:50.829)
Kim Vopni (15:52.334)
honking, I apologize for the extra noise. But as you were talking, I was thinking also about, you know, the people who are feeling like I feel pressure and social media, and there's a lot of people talking about hormone therapy on social media, good and bad. and I don't mean that the information is good or bad. I just mean that it can be perceived good or bad, because it's always perceived as you're just trying to sell something or what about the people that can't take hormones or don't want hormones? I think what's changed is we have social media, we have these platforms.
And back in the day, hormone therapy was just, it was just like, it was a medication. was prescribed and nobody talked about it in, in a good and bad way in the sense of there was, it wasn't, it was just, you, if you went to your doctor and you talked about hot flashes, they were just like, here you go, estrogen. And it was a, it was fine. And then, and then when women's health initiative came along and just created so many myths and that what we're now fighting against and why maybe people interpret as you're just trying to sell something.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (16:30.33)
Yeah.
Kim Vopni (16:51.63)
is because of the hangover from the Women's Health Initiative and the fears, the inaccurate messaging that was sent out to the world that we're now trying to recover from. So, yeah.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (17:02.009)
Yeah, estradiol was the number one most prescribed medication before the WHI study came out. So yeah, every most women were on it or were given the opportunity to be on it by their doctor. Yeah.
Kim Vopni (17:08.226)
Yeah, yeah. It's...
We're on it. Yeah. Yeah. And it wasn't a big deal. Now we didn't have social media to be chatting about it either. now, and now it just seems like social media is so the world is very polarized. And, you know, if you want to be successful on social media, you have to be saying, sharing something polarizing, because that's going to give you more views. And so we, it's harder for us to really know who to trust and what to, what, what is true for us, right?
Anyway, coming back to the changes from a skin, know, I always joke whenever I'm teaching what I call the core breath, and I'll say, you know, we're going to purse your lips. So the lips on your face, and I'm always referencing the lips on your face is we're going to purse those, but then we're also going to purse your other lips, the vulva, the labia majora, the labia minora, all kind of different queuing to help people access the pelvic floor.
The changes that happen on our face, see those, we're maybe aware of those sooner. The people that didn't have any symptoms along the way and say, well, why would I use hormone therapy? I didn't have any of, as you call the outward symptoms of the hot flashes. They may start to see some wrinkling or dryness at their skin, but they may not necessarily equate that those changes are also happening to the vulva, to the vagina.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (18:38.779)
you
Kim Vopni (18:38.914)
When we talk about skin health, a lot of what we can do on our face, I mean, God, I am a skincare junkie. I love treatments. I love skincare cream. love, I will buy all the potions in the world, including your estrogen face cream, which I love. Likewise. So I love skin and I had nobody had ever told me about.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (18:52.515)
And you have amazing skin, Kim. Yeah.
Kim Vopni (19:02.2)
that I need to care until I met and met a nurse continent's advisor. This is like 15 years ago. And she said, we need to moisturize your vagina. I was like, what, what the heck? is that? And now of course, yes, I say it all the time, but nobody had ever, nobody shares that information. And especially, you know, I'm still hearing people that don't hear about pelvic health and it's now becoming a bit more talked about and GSM is being a bit more talked about, but it still is. I don't think people really appreciate the necessity. So.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (19:09.199)
Yeah.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (19:32.314)
Yeah.
Kim Vopni (19:32.394)
If we start with the face, let's start with the face and kind of go down. We'll work our way down to the vulva vagina. You talked about estrogen receptors everywhere. What prompted you to create products to address that?
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (19:47.738)
because when I started to go through menopause, something that happened was my pore size increased a lot so that it was shockingly noticeable to me. And I had always had great skin. And so suddenly I'm looking in the mirror and it looks like I have almost like blackheads everywhere, like, but not.
bumped out. You know, they're just the pores. The pores are dark and they're filled with it looked like they were filled with dirt. And I was like, what is happening? And so I went down the rabbit hole of researching what is happening to your face when you lose hormones. And it was that estradiol actually helps to shrink pores. And not only that, it helps to build type three collagen. And
the trajectory of losing estradiol over the years, the collagen levels go right alongside with it. So as you see the estradiol dropping, collagen production drops with it. And so we start rapidly losing collagen as we age, which we need that for all of ours, not just our face, but we need it everywhere.
I said both lips, right? We got up and down. need it. We need that. It's moisturizing. Estriol, which is one of the estrogen. So there's three estrogens. Estrone, estradiol, estriol, estriol being our pregnancy estrogen. It's the weakest of the three estrogens is phenomenal for moisture, for creating moisture in the skin, in the vaginal tissue. It's why it's used for
vaginal dryness and for women that have a history of breast cancer, they'll give them Estriol vaginal suppositories or a moisturizer because it's not proliferative or not very proliferative and it does such an amazing job to bring moisture to the tissue. then progesterone actually also helps us to build collagen. Melatonin, which most people are like, well, that's just the sleep hormone.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (22:10.379)
you should melatonin topical melatonin unbelievable for your skin. It's like this hidden little like nobody knows. we can use melatonin and it actually will make you tired, which is really funny. Our friend Nat, I think you've met Nat, right? Yeah. So I remember her and I were using this melatonin face cream of, of this guy that we were speaking for down in Florida.
And he gave us a little sample of his cream and it had melatonin in it. And she's just like, remember sitting there falling asleep. She's like, my God, the melatonin in the skin cares in the skin cream. And I'm like, is that's what this is doing? I'm like, I'm so tired right now. And sure enough, and that's why I actually I created a progesterone melatonin topical oil because I went and researched it and realized like, melatonin is actually better taken transdermally than it is orally.
Kim Vopni (22:58.542)
Mm-hmm.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (23:07.397)
the way it because it's a slower release into the system. So melatonin though topical melatonin is a very powerful antioxidant. So to use it on your face is amazing. So progesterone melatonin estradiol, astriol, DHEA and testosterone. So these are all hormones ladies that all go down with age. So as you go into perimenopause menopause
These hormones are all on the going down testosterone in some women doesn't. It's one that we can still continue making after menopause, but we are seeing more and more women with lower and lower levels of testosterone in menopause. So we are losing more, I think than we used to same with men. But as far as the aging goes and which hormones are dropping the melatonin goes
the growth hormone goes, DHA goes, the estradiol, the progesterone, all of these, you can't make them. can't supplement your way out of the loss of those hormones because it's just an age thing. And I think a lot of women need to hear that, especially the ones that are trying to not use hormones, which I, once again, totally have respect for that if that's what you're choosing to do. And I will help women figure out what are the best things they can take.
to help them through this time period and to help give them some of the benefits that maybe HRT could have. But nothing, none of those supplements will ever bring back those hormone levels. So we just have to be very clear about that. Testosterone, it's different. That can stay over here. But the other ones, they just go. So DHEA actually helps with...
Thickening of the skin. It's also why you'll see it in a vaginal moisturizer because it does help to bring moisture. does convert to estrogen in the tissue, but it also helps to thicken the skin. It can cause acne and it can cause oily skin. So you have to be careful with using it. But if you are having thinning facial skin, it is something that if in very small amounts you could put on topically
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (25:28.122)
to help thicken your skin. What I do is I put the DHEA Estriol Vaginal Moisturizer on my hands. And that's so that it can help thicken my skin. I'm not going to get acne on my hands. So I figure that's a good place to put it. I was really excited when I thought to do that. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm to put my vaginal moisturizer on my old lady hands because I have I don't want to say old lady hands. That sounds mean because if I was an older woman, that would be like
Don't say that, but testosterone does the same thing. It's also an androgen DHEA and testosterone are both androgens and testosterone. Same thing can thicken the skin, but at the same time, if you overuse it or you are a high converter into what's called DHT, you can get acne and oily skin from topical testosterone. That's actually a very common thing to happen.
Kim Vopni (26:21.805)
Yeah.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (26:25.218)
as far as the hormones go, shrink pores, builds collagen, and that's topical as well as systemic. So if you're taking and you want a combination to get the most benefits for your skin, you want to take a combination of both. So you want to put it on topically, but as well, you want to bring up systemic levels. And that same actually with the vaginal tissue as well is a lot of women will just
just put it on their vagina, the estrogen, but it works a lot better if you can get the systemic levels up to a certain place, a certain level, it will work its way down and you will be able to hold on to the integrity of the vaginal tissue if the systemic levels stay up. Yeah.
Kim Vopni (27:13.644)
Yeah. I think part of what's confusing with hormone therapy is there's so much to know, but terminology can be confusing for people as well. Cause we've just said topically and the preferred form of systemic hormone therapy now you could argue is topical. Mind you, we use the term transdermal, right? And so, so oral estrogen is something that people can potentially take. It's not, I would say it's falling out of favor for some people, although that is, it still could be prescribed for some.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (27:30.042)
Right.
Kim Vopni (27:43.649)
So it's, yeah. And right. So the, the, know that there is an increased risk of blood clot and stroke with oral estrogen. just to say that there. So generally it's preferred now to have transdermal, meaning it's a patch or a gel or a cream that you're applying somewhere on your body. With systemic hormone therapy, you wouldn't necessarily apply it to your face. So.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (27:44.105)
many still prescribe it. Shockingly.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (27:54.97)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Vopni (28:12.14)
When you're using the term topical, we're talking about potentially putting it on your face or putting it on your vulva vagina as the word topical. just kind of want to, just make sure people don't get confused. Yeah.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (28:20.47)
Yes, no, you're smart to say that. Yeah, yeah. So when I say systemic transdermal, basically you're going to be applying your estrogen, your progesterone, your testosterone to your skin. You're not going to take it orally. This can be done either.
you can do it intermuscular injection or a sub cue injection with estrogen and testosterone typically. But most people it's it's a topical cream or gel or patch when it comes to the estrogen. But yeah, we try to avoid the oral. So that's what you're going to use to bring up your systemic levels and it's going to be in a higher concentration, you're to be putting more on that area because you need to get those levels up. When you're
Kim Vopni (29:08.718)
higher dose and more. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Sorry to interrupt you.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (29:10.498)
Correct. Yes. Yeah. So no, that's good. when you're putting it as a facial cream. So here's the thing in the research, when you look up, you know, estrogen used for, you know, facial aging, there's some great research. There was one done that, you know, within six months of use on the face, it showed a 60 to 90%, 60 to a hundred percent reduction of poor size increase in type three collagen and a decrease in wrinkled
depth and then it says they did not find that levels systemic levels increased with the use of estrogen on the face. So when I first made my products and put them out there I put on research shows that it will not raise systemic levels when used on the face and in
My assumption was you just don't need very much. So a little goes a long way. So it's really not going to affect your systemic levels. Unlike when you put it on the inside of your arm, you're using a lot more. You're going to be using, let's say, if you're a menopausal woman, a very typical dose to get to good levels is about a milligram to 1.5 milligrams a day. Okay. So when you're using it on the face, it's a quarter or less of that.
Well, I didn't think too far ahead about this and I should have which is women started to just like shower themselves in my cream because they're like, this is not going to go systemically. This is doing wonders for my face. So then they're like on the neck on the chest and they're putting it twice a day and then we were getting women coming back where it absolutely
increase their levels of astronaut estriol systemically. And so I had to remove that and put that yes, you use enough of this, it will absolutely is going to go through your skin and into the blood system. So yes, it can raise your level systemically. I typically recommend women use like a pump to two pumps a day if they're in menopause and that's enough.
Kim Vopni (31:09.697)
Mm-hmm.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (31:31.268)
to cover the face, neck and a little bit of the chest, which is where you really want it. And then the rest you want to try and get up systemically to help with things like the crepey skin. I noticed this and our mutual friend, Dr. Amy Horniman noticed this as well. She had to stop her hormones when she was doing her cancer treatment. And she said she stopped them for only a couple of weeks and then was like, nope.
I'm going back on because I have crepe skin now. Like it happened that fast that hurt so quick to give her the crepey skin. And I was like, that's never happened to me. And then, of course, I have to say that because then six months later, I'm suddenly going, why are my arms so dry? And it was creepy. They were all creepy. Suddenly got my hormones tested. My estradiol had plummeted.
Kim Vopni (32:05.175)
so quickly.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (32:28.985)
And so I had needed an increase because I was still in the perimenopausal like swings, right? I have been for since I was 42. I brought back my period and then now it's just been slowly on headed on its way out. But it was it just took a dive and now I haven't gotten my period. So now I'm like fully in menopause, but my estrogen dropped. My crepey skin went through the roof. I upped my estrogen and within a month it was back to normal.
Kim Vopni (32:58.903)
Wow, that's crazy.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (33:00.589)
That's crazy. Yeah. And then hair loss. have estradiol. Estradiol will actually help with hair growth, collagen, but also it helps for the hair follicle not to turn over as fast. So it helps with the hair shedding and keeps your hair intact. Eye sight. It will help with your eyesight, which I know that that's not beauty per se, but these are just little things that people won't, they just don't think that, this
Kim Vopni (33:14.913)
hehe
Mm-hmm.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (33:29.185)
relates to hormonal loss and aging, but it does. So you can start losing your eyesight, dry eyes, but also eyesight will start to go because of the loss of estrogen. Ears, so hearing, hearing loss is partially due to the loss of estradiol. The cracking old lady, I'm gonna call it old lady voice. Voice changes, yep.
Kim Vopni (33:34.647)
dry ice.
Yeah.
Kim Vopni (33:55.437)
Yeah, voice changes. Huge. Yeah.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (33:58.04)
because we have estradiol receptors on our voice box. think of all, like these are all the things that class, like that are headed our way as we're getting older and older. It's like we used to think that that was inevitable to have to hit all of those things. But if you speak to, have you ever had Dr. Lindsay Berkson on your show?
Kim Vopni (34:25.045)
No, but I've listened to her many times. I love her.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (34:27.731)
she's amazing. She's one of the most brilliant hormone docs out there and she always talks about this and she said like, look at me. She said I'm seven. think she's 73 years old. Her voice crystal clear. Her brain's intact. She looks like she's in her fifties. You would never guess she was over 70 in a million years. And she's like hormones.
Kim Vopni (34:55.799)
Mm-hmm.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (34:56.109)
Like, of course, genetics has something to with health, right? We know that nutrition on exercise, it has to this is those are the non negotiables. They're going to help you to age lot slower and keep everything intact and all that. It's going to really, really help. But hormones are just that. You just you can't get what you can get from hormones, both systemic as also and also apply topically. I even looked up.
Kim Vopni (34:59.479)
health.
Kim Vopni (35:19.543)
Yeah.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (35:24.215)
What if we applied estrogen to the scalp? And there was a little bit of research where they did use it, and they found kind of mixed results, but they did see that it helped with hair growth. But I would think that just keeping your systemic levels up are going to help with all of that.
Kim Vopni (35:35.725)
Hmm. Makes sense.
Yeah. Yeah. So with your face creams, the, you mentioned Estriol and Estriodile and face and well, you mentioned Estriol, Estriodile, Estrone. So those are the three main types. Estriol is a little more anti-inflammatory, more abundant when we're pregnant. Estriodile is sort of our more potent Estrone, mainly produced by fat tissue postmenopause, a little bit more inflammatory.
In the vagina, in and around the vulva vagina, there are both estriol and estradiol receptors. Is that the same for the skin? And should we be using both types or just one or the other topically on our face? I know like we can get to the vagina in a moment, but on the face specifically, is there benefit to one or the other or both?
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (36:16.515)
Mm-hmm.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (36:31.789)
There's benefit to both, to using both. So, Estriol sits primarily on what's called the better receptor, so very little proliferation, very soft, very mild. Apparently, we're rich with better receptors in the vaginal tissue, which I have not been able to confirm that with much research. Like, I've heard it being discussed by physicians.
Kim Vopni (36:56.013)
There's not a lot. Yeah.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (37:01.707)
I've tried finding things to back that up. Couldn't really find much except for kind of clinical experience that they find that Estriol just seems to provide that much more moisture than Estriol or Estriol. But Estriol being the most the strongest Estriol has it's about 50 50 on the on the alpha and the beta receptor. Alpha is great for proliferation. So also
proliferate growth of collagen. So I think that it's going to be better and this is just my own take on this but estradiol because it sits on both of those receptors you're going to get the collagen growth and you're going to get the moisturizing effects of both from both estradiol and the estriol.
Kim Vopni (37:34.327)
Hmm.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (37:54.604)
And then Estrone sits primarily on the alpha receptor. So it's great. They say for things like you want a little bit of Estrone, of course, for mostly like bone proliferation. Great. mean, for many other things as we need it, but it is more inflammatory. So if it gets out of control, it's not good, but kept under control, it's fine. But yes, it can be more inflammatory and more proliferative than the other two.
Kim Vopni (38:10.135)
Yeah.
Kim Vopni (38:14.253)
Yeah.
Kim Vopni (38:21.154)
Yep.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (38:21.995)
So it is the one that's more linked to making, know, if there's a breast cancer tumor, it's going to make it more proliferative because it's our primary estrogen in menopause because we can make it out of fat tissue.
Kim Vopni (38:30.199)
Yeah.
Kim Vopni (38:37.569)
Yeah, yeah. And so then coming down to the vulva vagina, again, both types and I'm the same as you like there, there is some research about the two. I've asked a few doctors within the Ishwish, which is the International Study for this first, I can never remember the acronym International Society for the Study of Women's Sexual Health, Ishwish. That yes, both are beneficial, the Estriol and the Estradial.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (38:39.265)
in Sweden. Yeah.
Right.
Kim Vopni (39:07.085)
which basically what you've just said and shared is the same. So we're looking at tissue integrity, we're looking at blood flow, we're looking at proliferation, we're looking at moisture, like all the things we want to have addressed. So, yeah.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (39:20.151)
Yeah. And testosterone and DHA too have its own different types of it. Again, it will convert to estrogen, estradiol in the vaginal tissue, but on its own is really great for strengthening the uterus strengthening your bladder. It's like tests. I've heard of women doing testosterone. Like they inject not with a needle, but like with a little
Kim Vopni (39:29.569)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Kim Vopni (39:37.431)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Vopni (39:47.821)
Like an applicator, yeah. Like a plunger kind of almost, yeah.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (39:48.811)
like an applicator of testosterone, yes, right into the vagina and it helps with blood control, which estrogen can too. But if maybe you don't wanna take estrogen, maybe you've got a history of breast cancer or whatever and you feel better with testosterone, then you can use that too.
Kim Vopni (39:54.827)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Kim Vopni (40:08.171)
Yeah. Yeah. And just on the note about breast cancer, I think we can, based on all of the people that I have followed and the research that I've looked at, the removal of the FDA warning, people with active cancers are able, again, you have to work with your oncologist, but Dr. Kareen Men, Dr. Rachel Rubin, Dr. Kelly Haspersen, it's as in Rachel Rubin's words, every single woman can use vaginal estrogen.
The DHEA piece is there are many people who recommend potentially using both estrogen typically vaginal estrogen and typically dose twice a week. There are other nights where some people know if that's not enough support for you may be benefiting from adding in the androgen component by supporting with DHEA. So DHEA converting to testosterone then estrogen.
There was one doctor I saw the other day who was saying, you know, she doesn't always recommend it unless it's needed because maybe that would be getting to the point of maybe there's going to be too much estrogen. But again, I find it, I haven't, there's no studies on this, but I find it because of how low dose it is and the infrequency of using it to get to being quote unquote too much estrogen. It doesn't,
I think there's very low likelihood of that happening. again, I don't have the research to say that. Yes, exactly. Yes.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (41:28.286)
if used to how it's recommended to use. Because what I heard for so many years was these people like Rachel Rubin and these doctors of menopause, them saying, it doesn't go systemic. Go ahead and use vaginal estrogen, no problem, it won't go systemic. And I'm like, why are they saying that it's not gonna go systemic?
Kim Vopni (41:39.202)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Vopni (41:44.845)
Mm-hmm.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (41:54.953)
And it's because of how often it's prescribed. And so it's usually, like you said, like twice a week. I think they say use it every day for two weeks. And then after that, twice a week. And it's in a very small dose. It'll be in like microgram dosing. And so, yeah, that's not going to raise systemic levels. But if you put a milligram of estradiol inside the vagina every single day, 100%, that is going to raise your level. So it's not that the vaginal tissue
isn't going to, it's like there's no wall around there making sure that nothing gets out into the bloodstream. That's not how it works. And I think a lot of women assumed that that's what they meant by that. And it's like, no.
Kim Vopni (42:28.204)
Right.
Kim Vopni (42:36.781)
Yeah. And there is one medication that is delivered vaginally that does go, that is meant to go systemically because the tissues are very, they absorb very well and they can help. But again, it's higher dose. So that's the differentiating factor is not where it's applied, it's how much and how often. So that's a good distinguishing factor for that. So the creams on the face can benefit from both.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (42:48.574)
Yes.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (42:57.56)
Correct.
Kim Vopni (43:05.825)
vaginal, double vaginal tissues into the vagina benefit from both. The progesterone side, there are some people who will even take their prometrium or their oral progesterone pill and insert it vaginally. yeah, I, it's, I don't know enough about it. I'm, again, I'm also not a doctor nor are you. We, we don't, we can't prescribe or tell people to do that. I don't know anybody in my community who is doing that, that, that, that,
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (43:19.5)
This is a big thing right now.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (43:32.415)
I know so many.
Kim Vopni (43:34.495)
I was going say you probably have a lot of engineers who are. You then, but you have the progesterone oil, again, so this would be topical or transdermal. You could say topical or transdermal on the scapula.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (43:48.291)
But you have the answer for this Kim, because you were the one that was telling me about this, which is the approved oils for the vaginal microbiome. And there's not a lot because unfortunately there's not been a lot of research on it, of course. But Prometrium, oral progesterone is suspended in peanut oil, which peanut oil is one of the most toxic chemical-laden oils there is.
Kim Vopni (44:00.535)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (44:17.694)
Is that safe for the vaginal microbiome,
Kim Vopni (44:23.533)
I don't have, there's no research on that. So I'm always, I mean, but when I think about the conversation I had with Dr. Moira Bradfield, who's really like kind of the world expert on the vaginal microbiome, it's not, that would not be, that would not be on the list. Wouldn't be on the list.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (44:36.098)
wasn't in the list. But women seem to do okay with doing it like that. I haven't heard any woman coming back saying like she got a raging yeast infection or something, a mishap happened down there. I have not heard that. So I do say to women, okay, yeah, if you want to use it vaginally, that's up to you.
Kim Vopni (44:45.837)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Vopni (44:54.987)
Yep.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (45:01.622)
You know, with your doctor's consent. Great. And there's a lot of doctors that are saying to use it like that, especially for women that are that have progesterone sensitivity and can't handle oral progesterone. It's like, well, then throw it up the other way. Great. OK. But just keep in mind, it's not made for the vaginal microbiome. Peanut oil is not made for the vaginal microbiome. It's not the best oil to use down there.
Kim Vopni (45:07.213)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Vopni (45:14.487)
Mm-hmm.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (45:26.752)
And so there are other options and just keep that in mind. You can get a proper progesterone suppository. You can use topical, like my progesterone is suspended in MCT oil. So, know, like that, that would probably be a little bit better than the peanut oil. So you could rub that on your vulva and get, you know, get that up. You could get, would soak in and it would definitely.
Kim Vopni (45:33.227)
Yeah.
Kim Vopni (45:46.637)
Yeah.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (45:55.969)
raise systemic levels that way. Yes. Yeah.
Kim Vopni (45:56.396)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and you were talking about the, the progesterone oil you have with the melatonin and the purposes behind that. So it is, it is, I, I'm making an assumption. It was originally designed sort of for a calm for sleep support. However, it also has the benefit for the skin tissue as well.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (46:17.536)
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And like I said, it's great for collagen building as well. So some women that are maybe in a perimenopausal phase and they don't want to put estrogen on their face yet because they don't want to raise their levels or take the risk of raising levels, they will use the progesterone cream on their face instead so that can help to preserve the skin as they're aging. And that works well. And then another big thing that we're seeing right now in social media that's huge,
Kim Vopni (46:19.405)
Yeah.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (46:46.584)
is women using vaginal estrogen cream on their face. So the other way around. And I also say, well, maybe look at what's in the ingredients of that compounded vaginal cream, or maybe it's a pharmaceutical company made it and read what's in in there and just see, you know, because likely it'll have parabens in it. It's going to have some not so great ingredients. And there are
Kim Vopni (46:54.017)
Mm-hmm.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (47:15.274)
Estrogen creams that you can get prescribed from your doctor to use on the face or there are over-the-counter which of course I'm gonna tell my own but I have like I have over-the-counter estrogen face cream that's got clean ingredients in it made for the face So you can use that instead you don't need to use your vaginal cream on your face
Kim Vopni (47:27.02)
hehe
Kim Vopni (47:40.088)
Yeah, yeah. And we know the answer to this, but I think it's important for us to highlight because so, and first of all, I use your estrogen face cream and I do really love it. It's, it's, it's just, it's very simple. It's very, as you say, it's very clean. It's very moisturizing. It's not irritating. Does it smell like it's, it's lovely, lovely cream, but we were just on another call, a conversation about the,
hormones being over the counter versus not because technically hormones are something that are prescribed, but when they are cosmetic and now we're talking specific to the FDA and the US here. When they are, when it is cosmetic, so this is different dosing as well, it is approved for over the counter. Yeah.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (48:35.16)
Correct. Yeah. And so I always say that I can't say that these are going to replace your hormones. I'm not legally allowed to say that, but what I can say is that it can support the menopausal transition and the menopausal years. And it is considered a cosmetic like beauty cream, beauty oil that contain USP grade hormones. And the hormones that I use are the same grade of hormones.
Kim Vopni (48:41.805)
Correct.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (49:04.13)
that you're gonna get from your prescribed HRT. So there isn't a difference in strength or quality. And that's, I think, very important to hear.
Kim Vopni (49:16.137)
It is, and it still comes down though to the dose. the percentage of, do you know what I'm saying? There's the percentage and the frequency and the, as you said, the amount that somebody would pump out that is different from what some of the prescribed. So even though they could be the same,
certified hormones, the amount that is in the products that it would be prescribed versus the cosmetic can be different.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (49:48.451)
Well, prescribed, the only difference is that prescription compounded hormone replacement therapy can be tailored to what that person wants. So if your doctor says you should be on 0.5 milligrams camovastrodial a day, he can get a cream that's made in that exact dose. Rather over the counter, it's gonna be just a standard, this is, right? So I've got a cream that's a perimenopausal one.
Kim Vopni (49:58.295)
Yes.
Kim Vopni (50:08.674)
Right.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (50:18.316)
that is 0.25 milligrams per dose of cream. But then I have one that's the facial one that is a lot more potent and that contains one milligram of estradiol per dose. And so it's, yeah, so you have to read and see, okay, well, where is this? Because a lot of women will purchase them to replace what they were purchasing through a pharmacy.
Kim Vopni (50:36.833)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kim Vopni (50:42.978)
Right.
Right.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (50:45.91)
I just can't say that that's what you should do. Legally, right? Yeah, yeah.
Kim Vopni (50:48.621)
Yes, yes, Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's important information, because I get asked that all the time, and it's important to know. So yeah, that's really helpful.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (50:54.944)
Yes, yeah. It's great because it makes it available to women that have a hard time getting it from their physicians or they can't afford to see a hormone specialist or they just want a little bit of help with this transitional period. They're getting a little bit of symptoms but they're not ready to go to the doctor and do everything that they need to do to get the prescription and they can use these products or they can just use it as a facial.
Kim Vopni (51:00.589)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Vopni (51:08.663)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Vopni (51:16.609)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Vopni (51:24.364)
Yep.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (51:24.376)
you know, regimen and it's so much cheaper than what you would get for high end anti-aging products, which so it takes you a long ways, right? Like a bottle of our estrogen cream, if you're just using it on your face, would probably last a person six months, you know? So compared to what somebody would pay to have a high end, you know, anti-wrinkle cream for their face, that's, you know, $300 for a bottle that lasts them a month.
Kim Vopni (51:31.521)
Right.
Kim Vopni (51:40.257)
Yeah, yeah.
Kim Vopni (51:50.998)
Right.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (51:52.304)
And the results are incredible. people can go on even onto the website and look at the reviews. There's nothing but five star reviews of women just going, my gosh, I can't believe how much this changed my skin. And so, know, whether or not somebody gets it from me, don't, you know, you do you, but it is something that we should all have in our menopausal toolbox is topical estrogen for your face or hormone creams for your face.
Kim Vopni (51:55.714)
Yeah.
Kim Vopni (52:10.443)
Yeah.
Kim Vopni (52:19.564)
Yeah.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (52:21.109)
So whether that you get that prescribed, which you can talk to your doctor about doing a compounded facial cream. Like I know my compounding pharmacy here in BC, I was just sitting on the phone and they had like the automation, the thing that when you're on hold and they're like, we now sell a topical facial estrogen cream. Talk to your pharmacist about it. And I'm like, well good on you. So you can't, it's available. So if you want to get it prescribed, that's available to you.
Kim Vopni (52:35.509)
Yeah.
Kim Vopni (52:46.848)
Yeah. Yeah.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (52:51.151)
And you know, if you really wanted to use your vaginal cream on your face, you can do that as well. You are going to get the benefits of the estrogen.
Kim Vopni (52:56.096)
Yep. Yep.
But I wouldn't recommend, neither of us would recommend doing the opposite. Don't take your face cream and put it on your vaginas. there's, there's also, we have to be careful with the ingredients. Is it made for the vagina? Is it have the right pH, osmolality, all that kind of stuff. Yeah.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (53:09.891)
Yes. Yeah, yeah. Before we had a vaginal moisturizer, many women were using it. The Bias, Face Cream, the Estriol, they would put it on their labia and I would just say to them, know, because they'd say, well, is this safe to use on the vagina? And I said, well, it's not made for the vaginal microbiome. However, women are using it down there and successfully just.
Kim Vopni (53:34.689)
Yep.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (53:36.491)
you know, to maybe not put it right up inside, rather just around the labia and in the inner thighs. Because it would help with the moisturizing, which is huge, yeah.
Kim Vopni (53:38.806)
Right.
Right, right.
Yep. A thousand percent. Where can people find your amazing products and learn more about you and listen to your podcasts and all the good things?
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (53:54.209)
Karenmartell.com and we've got a 10 % off coupon, which Kim's going to put in the show notes because I don't remember what your coupon is to you.
Kim Vopni (54:03.798)
Probably Vagina Coach, but we'll all make sure that it's the right one in the show notes. That's usually my code, but you never know. Yeah. Cool. Thank you so much for sharing all your wisdom. Amazing. And your podcast. Yes. Didn't you change it? Were you going to change it to the Midlife Solution podcast?
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (54:06.921)
Okay. Probably a vagina coach. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's good. So yeah, you can get 10 % off. You're welcome. And the hormone solution podcast.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (54:28.661)
No, I changed my business name from hormone solutions to midlife solutions because we don't just do hormones there. We kind of, so the company is of minus, you know, putting the products aside. We have a telehealth company for women that, and we can prescribe HRT, estrogen, progesterone, estrogen, and thyroid management to every state in the United States. And then as well, Alberta in
Canada. can prescribe in BC and Ontario, but we can't do the blood work. So you have to get the blood work from somewhere else. But if you're in the United States and you're looking for an HRT provider, especially things like testosterone, thyroid, that's very challenging for women to get estrogen progesterone is pretty easy these days. And it's a some of it.
Like my own can be bought over the counter, but testosterone is very challenging for some women to find and to find a provider that will give that and for an affordable price. So, we do have that as well.
Kim Vopni (55:29.964)
Yeah
Amazing. Amazing. Thank you so much. Super interesting. I appreciate all of your wisdom.
Karen Martel Midlife Soutions (55:35.542)
Yeah, you're so welcome. So glad to be here. Thanks, Kim.
